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Darwinian Universe

This post grows out of a discussion being had in Coti Technologies Project. It's intended to show how a Dwarinian Universe could evolve without aid of the "Grandfather". It also expresses MTU and how these races evolved without the influence of Aliens.

Darwinism main idea is that species evolve to fill a niche within the regional ecosystem of a world. They are well adapted to fulfill the role they fit in the ecosystem. Dominant species such as mankind are able to control their environments to a certain degree and adapt to new ones as they expand their territory over the world.
Mankind is of primate stock but few people realize Lemurs are a part of the primate family. We will tend to answer Chimpanzee, Gorilla or Ape when asked the question about primates. Lemurs according to the dictionary are: Any of several arboreal primates with soft fur, large eyes and a long tail. If you follow the Darwin’s theory of Evolution you see Vargr and Alsan in the making.
A lemur like animal begins life filling a niche of being a tree dweller for several million years. The world is tropical at this time and vast forests cover most of it. Both the Vargr and Alsan are hunters whose major prey is the smaller animal living in the canopy with them. As time goes on they both come down out of the trees and begin exploiting the ground underneath the canopy. Their hands and feet at this time developed for grasping onto the branches that have been their homes for the last several million years.
This example parallels the scientific view of the development of Mankind. We too were once arboreal and for some reason and moved from trees to the ground. The most likely causes were environmental or population pressure forced us to the ground.
Vargr with their canine like facial features hunted in packs and were the most successful of the tree borne predators. When they reached the ground they continued to use the pack as a successful form of gathering food. Alsan on the other hand may or may not have used the pride system to gather food at this point. Alsan could have been solitary hunters. Everyone see a second race of Alsan appearing here?
As the Vargr population developed an upright posture and began expanding across their world evolution was still at work. Those who remained in the savannas and grasslands developed brown fur, those who remained under the trees developed reddish brown and black fur. If evolution were still advancing the Vargr’s body at this point, those who moved into alpine and arctic climates would develop dark fur. By this time, they have started using tools and fire. As the population grew, clashes between different groups moving into these areas would cause the Vargr to seek others of their kind who look exactly like them. Thus we have the basis for clan like behavior.
As their culture formed this clannish behavior continues. Nations are formed and wars are fought. Three distinct clans are formed: Shenar, Rocnar and Husnar. Shenar or savanna Vargr would have brown and black marking like a German shepherd. Rocnar or forest Vargr develops the red and brown marking like Doberman Pitchers. They also have narrow snouts to reach inside tight spaces. Last group the Husnar or Alpine Varge have developed black and white fur much like a husky’s markings and broader faces.
This example of Darwinism is based on the principle most working dogs were domesticated from wolf. It takes into account that these types of canines would most likely survive through rigors of evolution. There is no needing too genetically alter the race because like us it developed along parallel lines of evolution. Using this as the basis for all primate evolution, we end up several races of primates.
 
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1. They would all come from ecosystems similar to ours. Oxygen atmosphere and plenty of water.
2. They would all have a humanoid appearance as much as their hands, feet, and walk upright.
3. Position of internal organs would be much like ours.

There are several issues still to be address here.
Genetically they would appear to have the same genes as humanoid. I know that sounds weird but you have to figure that if they appear human only their faces and the amount of fur are different. On the genetic level they would appear much like us accept for these difference and the placement of several other genes. That does not mean they can interbreed with mankind (yuk) it means there would be a lot of confusion about the origins of man at that point.
Biocompatibility is another issue. The soil content and atmosphere may taint foodstuffs, which will prevent one species from eating another species’ food supplies. Atmospheric contaminates will not allow another race from breathing the other’s atmosphere.
Then there are the assumptions, ideas that provide a useable background for your game and taint the Darwin Universe.

1. There are more earth-like worlds out there than there might actually be. For species to interact, they have to have a common atmosphere and biocompatibility.
2. The exotic races, which may actually exist in a true Darwin Universe, are pushed to the background since compatible makes interaction with them difficult.
3. Races developed with extreme environments in mind could not advance beyond certain levels of technology. In order for them to advance certain things have to be accomplished before they can move on to the next level of technology. An alien who lives in a hydrogen atmosphere or is adapted to extreme cold would find it difficult to tame fire and thus, could not make the next leap up the technological scale.
4. Races with special environments hostile to Mankind maybe overlooked during any colonization effort unless you run into their starship. Therefore, spacefaring society would tend to interact with races with the same sort of biocompatibility.

At this point, you have to start looking at the societies and cultures of the races designed for your Darwin Universe. They will always be tainted no matter what you do. Our perspective as human beings will always skew them in our favor for the most part. It is the basis for our movies and television shows. This us verse them attitude is a part of the conflict which makes up our entertainment. The perspective of our own society skews the GM’s actions and designs. This is the unspoken rule of game system design. Good GM’s know it’s all how it presented and allows the players to explore his or her universe adding to the drama they have created.
With that said, we now must look at some general rules for the Darwin Universe.

1. Aquatic races would a tricky time achieving space flight. The medium, which they live in, would hamper their earliest efforts. Fire would be an alien concept so it is unlikely a race would develop beyond a Stone Age society. But it is not impossible.
2. Insect-type races would presumably be greeted with hostility. Man’s general phobia of multi-legged creatures would start this. Then it would be their ability mass produce that would cause conflict.
3. Predatory animal would be the odds on favor to win the evolutionary contest. Keep in mind that, predatory animals are usually sleek and fast when designing the race.
4. Creature without arms would either work in groups or learn to manipulate things with mouth, tail, tongue or psionically. Chances are these types of races never advance beyond the hunter gather stage.
5. Omnivores are better suited for survival than carnivores and herbivores. They can adapt to extreme climates faster and do not depend on a single source of food.
6. Tentacles based creatures would either develop manipulators on the end of tentacles or use several to perform a task. Walking would only be permissible if the animal develops specialized tentacles to perform this task. They would presumably drag themselves along the ground through grasping and contact with the surface.
7. Reproduction should be limited because once the race begins the advance up the ladder towards sentient. The population would overwhelm the ecology of an area rather quickly. When the ecosystem can no longer support the colony it would collapse. This is not to say a races cannot evolve from this survival tactic, it just means when they become sentient they takes steps to stop the over breeding of the population.

These general rules still allow for many life forms to exist within Darwinian Universe.
 
In the OTU Grandfather and the Ancients were only responsible for humaniti being transplanted and the the uplift and transplantation of the Vargr.

K'kree, Hivers, Ithklur, Aslan and lots of minor races all evolved on their own planets.

Evolution is a biological fact by the way - no reason to expect evolutionary pressures due to environmental change, adaptation etc would be any different on alien worlds with similar environments to earth.

The real question is how often intelligent life evolves...
 
...

1. Aquatic races would a tricky time achieving space flight. The medium, which they live in, would hamper their earliest efforts. Fire would be an alien concept so it is unlikely a race would develop beyond a Stone Age society. But it is not impossible.

...

rust with input (suggestions) from me and others came up with a possible way this could happen. The main key was how much natural curiousity the creatures have.

What developed in rustverse was a war with land base creatures. They (aquatics) grew tired of the land ones hunting and killing them. So they struck back.

One bright aquatic individual noticed that the land water craft was large enough to hold one of them and they were aware of how gases worked. Over time they (aquatic) developed hot air (in a sense) ballons with the boat underneath filled with water.

Skipping a head many eons, the aquatic was very organic orientated and learned how to make weapons, craft and such that used natural currents, animals and such.

rust made it all quite believable by the end of the leg work and ran it as a world for his players to colonize (eons after the race had slipped backwards.)

I don't have direct access to it any more because of EDG but you should be able to find the discussion on it at SFRPG if you wish

It was quite fun trying to make it work.

What it came down to for any race to advance was a reason. Intellect was not enough. In this one aquatic race incident it was war with land dwellers. Which afterward it took a rare individual or two to want more to move into the air, then into space.

Dave Chase
 
An underwater race could skip right past fire to electricity though, the problem with the developemental model is that it only shows developement here.

I created an underwater race called the Ki-ku Cha (similar to Krill), that live at the bottom of an ocean under a thick sheet of ice, they discovered fire from volcanic vents. In a way they are similar to us, just with a mutch more dense atmosphere and greater pressure.
 
An underwater race could skip right past fire to electricity though, the problem with the developemental model is that it only shows developement here.

Small problem: Electricity as a technology requires metalworking.

Metalworking requires either really awesome chemistry or rather basic use of fire.

Awesome chem requires being able to isolate chemicals - requiring pottery, glass, or similar. Which means, fire is needed.
 
Maybe not.

Small problem: Electricity as a technology requires metalworking.

Metalworking requires either really awesome chemistry or rather basic use of fire.

Awesome chem requires being able to isolate chemicals - requiring pottery, glass, or similar. Which means, fire is needed.
They don't need fire so much as they need heat and pressure, both of which they could find at deep water volcanic vents.
 
Small problem: Electricity as a technology requires metalworking.

Metalworking requires either really awesome chemistry or rather basic use of fire.

Awesome chem requires being able to isolate chemicals - requiring pottery, glass, or similar. Which means, fire is needed.

The discovery of electricity from a bio-electrical source could lead back into metalworking. No matter what, if it is being done underwater, the various processes used will be very different.
 
One minor glitch here: The aquatic race would have to start in the deep ocean around a volcanic vent. They would have to be highly developed before they could explore shallow parts of the ocean (Unless the oceans and seas are less than 100 meters deep) because removing them from the deep sea environment would kill them. Thus the need for pressure suits and enviromental controls to regulate body temperature.

I didn't say it was impossible, I said they would have a harder time at advancing up the Technology scale.
 
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They don't need fire so much as they need heat and pressure, both of which they could find at deep water volcanic vents.

Actually, Metalworking often requires a steep thermal gradient... Which water pretty much precludes. You have to be able to quickly heat and quickly cool the metal for smithing. You need good high heat to convert iron oxide to molecular iron, along with certain chemical reactions - reactions that happen to occur naturally in smelting iron oxide.

Pressure isn't essential for metalworking, save for its effects on the oxygen metabolism of smelting. (In other words, you have to have enough pressure for the process to get the oxygen it needs.)
 
Evolution is a biological fact by the way - no reason to expect evolutionary pressures due to environmental change, adaptation etc would be any different on alien worlds with similar environments to earth.


Thank you for that. The first two posts in this thread are among the saddest, most scientifically illiterate things I've ever read on this science-fiction roleplaying game forum.

Evolution is a fact, the universe already is "darwinian", evolution does not work towards any "goal" other than that of survival, and bipedal, humanoid forms only predominate in Star Trek and other Hollywood idiocies.
 
I’m sorry you feel that way considering this game was written by beings from a planet called Earth. You failed to see that influence on the game. The designers of this game also made humans the major race throughout the area known as the Imperium. They also gave us “Grandfather and his offspring” to explain how mankind spread throughout the stars. Perhaps had they followed James White's vision of space then you could make claims that my initial post was a bunch of hogwash. Nor was my initial post in this thread as an attack on this game or evolution, my fault for not stating that at the beginning. It was merely away of explain how the races of Traveller were created without use of Ancient Astronauts plot device common in science fiction of the late 70’s and early 80’s.
 
But the majority of the alien races in Traveller have nothing to do with Grandfather or the Ancients anyway.

Only the Humans and Vargr have been meddled with.

I'm pretty sure the Hivers, K'kree and Aslan wouldn't take kindly to describing humans as the major race...
 
But the majority of the alien races in Traveller have nothing to do with Grandfather or the Ancients anyway.

Only the Humans and Vargr have been meddled with.

I'm pretty sure the Hivers, K'kree and Aslan wouldn't take kindly to describing humans as the major race...

There is implication (in several sources) that the Hivers and K'Kree have been "meddled with"... of the majors in canon, the implications are that only the Aslan... and that's because Grandfather didn't see them being on the scene, and then adjusts the Coyns to match the empirical evidence he sees.
 
I don't recall any mention of Ancient meddling with K'kree or Hivers in their respective alien modules or elsewhere. I will go and read up though...
 
I don't recall any mention of Ancient meddling with K'kree or Hivers in their respective alien modules or elsewhere. I will go and read up though...

Specifically, it's that they are on coyns from before their spaceflight days, but the Aslan are not.
 
Specifically, it's that they are on coyns from before their spaceflight days, but the Aslan are not.
What is your source for the Hivers and the K'Kree being on the coyns prior to their spaceflight days[*]? Why can't they have been added after the fact, just as the Aslans presumably were?

[*] And the source for the Aslans not being on the coyns prior to their starfligt days? I quite agree that the Aslans were added after the fact, but I'm unaware of any canon statement to that effect.​

The Humans seem to have been on the Intermediate set (70,000 years ago -- There was one on one of the coyns the Chirper on Vanejen had[**]); if so, it's quite possible that they were also on the Old set (300,000 years ago). The Vargr could have been on the Old set, but might not have been.

[**] At least, I've always assumed that the Chirpers of Vanejen were descended from a colony of Droyne that Grandfather had tried but failed to teach how to caste and that their coyns were from that attempt. I've recently had a discussion with Don McKinney who believes the Droyne of Vanejen did learn to caste and only lost that knowledge fairly recently. If that's the case, their coyns may be Grandfather's most recent set (the "Modern" set), the same one that introduced the Aslans. (I've always thought the canon on Vanejen showed that there were two kinds of Chirpers, some that could learn to caste if shown how and some that had lost the ability to caste even with the help of coyns. Dom believes all Chirpers can be taught to caste and that the canon on Vanejen simply shows that no one is interested in teaching most of them. (Craydeejoyd's concentrated on one specific village because they were descendants of fairly recent castaways and ignored the rest because they were indigenous (well, more indigenous) to Vanejen).[***]
[***] I hope that's fairly put, Don.​


Hans
 
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>two kinds of Chirpers, some that could learn to caste if shown how and some that had lost the ability to caste even with the help of coyns.

I thought there was a write-up (possibly for TNE ?) saying the problem was less drastic than that .... recently devolved chirpers could caste fully with help and then maintain the ability going forward but after several generations the range of casting results was so skewed it became very hard to get back to a self sustaining casting ability point .... a project for several generations

It might have just been a house rule though to stop us totally screwing with the demographics of the subsector
 
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