Strategy vs Tactics

[bjjones37]

One of my favorite strategy games is Axis and Allies Global Edition. I have had a number of extensive sessions, both with the board game and on computer. There is a free PD edition known as TripleA, easy to find. I derive great pleasure from reenacting past events in WWII history and trying out my own solutions.

"Subjugating the enemy's army without fighting is the true pinnacle of excellence." Sun-tzu

 

[mike wightman]

Here is another Sun-Tzu quote:

“The line between disorder and order lies in logistics…”

An often quoted line which I will paraphrase is that amateurs study tactics while professional soldiers study logistics.

Tactics - one off engagements (that may take weeks or months)
Strategy - the sequence of engagements that will bring victory
Logistics - getting the stuff to where you need it so the above can happen.

There are quite a lot of online quotes regarding logistics:

"Logistics comprises the means and arrangements which work out the plans of strategy and tactics. Strategy decides where to act; logistics brings the troops to this point. - General Antoine Henri Jomini, Precis de l'Art de la Guerre (The Art of War), 1838"

"You will not find it difficult to prove that battles, campaigns, and even wars have been won or lost primarily because of logistics. - General Dwight D. Eisenhower"

Any discussion about tactics and strategy must always eventually boil down to logistics

 

[aramis]

Here is another Sun-Tzu quote:

“The line between disorder and order lies in logistics…”

An often quoted line which I will paraphrase is that amateurs study tactics while professional soldiers study logistics.

Tactics - one off engagements (that may take weeks or months)
Strategy - the sequence of engagements that will bring victory
Logistics - getting the stuff to where you need it so the above can happen.

There are quite a lot of online quotes regarding logistics:

"Logistics comprises the means and arrangements which work out the plans of strategy and tactics. Strategy decides where to act; logistics brings the troops to this point. - General Antoine Henri Jomini, Precis de l'Art de la Guerre (The Art of War), 1838"

"You will not find it difficult to prove that battles, campaigns, and even wars have been won or lost primarily because of logistics. - General Dwight D. Eisenhower"

Any discussion about tactics and strategy must always eventually boil down to logistics

Strategy is the hybrid of tactics and logistics.

 

[Spartan159]

I find this discussion fascinating, especially given that T5 has the skill Strategy. What has me confuzzled is how to actually apply the skill to the game. Any suggestions?

 

[mike wightman]

Strategy is the hybrid of tactics and logistics.

I disagree. The quotes I have found - and there are a lot more of them than the few I have quoted - puts logistics as separate and above either strategy or tactics.

“Amateurs think about tactics, but professionals think about logistics.” -- General Robert H. Barrow, USMC (Commandant of the Marine Corps) noted in 1980

“Strategy and tactics provide the scheme for the conduct of military operations, logistics the means therefore.” -- Lieutenant Colonel George C. Thorpe, USMC

“I am tempted to make a slightly exaggerated statement: that logistics is all of war-making, except shooting the guns, releasing the bombs, and firing the torpedoes.” -- ADM Lynde D. McCormick, USN

Getting this back to Traveller - the boardgames often involve some sort of resource mechanic that represents your logistic tail.

Take FFW - the tactical battle it what happens in an individual system, strategy is how you plot your fleet movement, but logistics is the movement of your admirals, the reorganisation of your fleet compositions and the spending of replacement and reinforcements as they become available.

Imperium is an excellent example of the split - again tactical battles occur at planets, strategy is how you move your units around the map, while logistics is what you do t ready your forces for the next war.

There is a really good GDW boardgame called Double Star, but sadly it was never brought into the Traveller universe the way Imperium was.

 

[aramis]

I find this discussion fascinating, especially given that T5 has the skill Strategy. What has me confuzzled is how to actually apply the skill to the game. Any suggestions?

Setting-up the supply chains, spotting logistical threats, and organizing the troops for large scale effect bonuses, and putting the right kinds of troops (from those available) on the correct targets and threats.

Mechanically, I'd allow a strategy roll to be made to predict (or reveal) one enemy unit of the current maneuver unit size or larger (provided said size is at least a company; Below Battalion is generally tactical).

 

[bjjones37]

Here is another Sun-Tzu quote:

“The line between disorder and order lies in logistics…”

An often quoted line which I will paraphrase is that amateurs study tactics while professional soldiers study logistics.

Tactics - one off engagements (that may take weeks or months)
Strategy - the sequence of engagements that will bring victory
Logistics - getting the stuff to where you need it so the above can happen.

There are quite a lot of online quotes regarding logistics:

"Logistics comprises the means and arrangements which work out the plans of strategy and tactics. Strategy decides where to act; logistics brings the troops to this point. - General Antoine Henri Jomini, Precis de l'Art de la Guerre (The Art of War), 1838"

"You will not find it difficult to prove that battles, campaigns, and even wars have been won or lost primarily because of logistics. - General Dwight D. Eisenhower"

Any discussion about tactics and strategy must always eventually boil down to logistics

The Guadalcanal campaign was a crucial one in the Pacific war and marked a turning point against the IJA. Neither side recognized its importance initially but it grew from being a minor objective to becoming the focus of the Pacific conflict. And it might have turned out considerably different had it not been for the failure of the Japanese logistical framework.

 

[vegas]

You guys can go round and round on this indefinitely because there is an inherent linguistic ambiguity between "tactics" and "strategy". There is a reason that the dictionary lists them as synonyms, though anyone familiar with both terms will also agree they don't mean the same thing. But what they mean is fuzzy and depends on context.

Tactics is lower scale, strategy is larger scale, and which term you use depends on your frame of reference.

Chess is a game of pure tactics, yet we talk about Chess strategy all the time, even distinguishing between opening, midgame and endgame strategy, white vs black strategy, etc.

Below battalion-level is tactics? OK, but it is not incorrect to ask a Lieutenant what his strategy is to capture an objective.

Is logistics separate from strategy or subsumed by it? Above it? Below it? All depends on context and who is talking.

 

[Major B]

Certainly the next step up from the basic concepts I was presenting. Yours look like an outline for developing a Plan of War.

It is exactly that. Tactical - Operational - Strategic framework is taught in the Army Command and General Staff College and War College.

Inserting Operational between Tactical and Strategic is a relatively new construct historically (post-WWII) but it is current doctrine. You could also draw a distinction between strategy and Grand Strategy this way: In WWII, the US Grand Strategy had two big components and a few smaller ones. There were strategies for each theater (Europe, Pacific, China-Burma-India (CBI), etc) knitted together into a Grand Strategy and decisions for one theater had impacts in the other. For example, there were not enough landing craft and ships for CBI until after the D-Day and Anvil-Dragoon operations were done in Europe.

Transposing the idea into the 3I, the Imperium probably had some smart guys drawing up strategies to defeat the Zhodani and others to defeat the Solomani and still others for other potential threats all tied together into a Grand Strategy. Sort of like to color-coded plans the US developed prior to WWII already mentioned in another post.

EDIT: One more thing - Developing a Strategic plan means conducting an analysis using Means, Ways, and Ends. Means are military units, ships, planes, formations, and other things that apply to diplomacy, economics, or information. Ways are the ways you can employ your means to achieve your ends - the strategic goals or objectives of the conflict.

 

[McPerth]

As for games, as I would define them:

Strategic:

• Main focus logistics, production and obtaining ressources.
• Troop units: Large formations. Little troop variation. Almost no ranged units (maybe air and ICBMs, but little else).
• Map: large areas on a single unit (be it a hex, a province or whatever it is). Little variation.
• Combat: usually by contact or being in the same place (again, air and ICBMs may figt at some range). Each combat represents a full battle or campaign, resolved with a few rolls (in many cases a single one)
• non traveller examples: Third Reich, Europa Universalis grand campaign, Empires at arms campaign. Clash of steel computer game
• Traveller games examples: Imperium (I guess also Dark nebula, but I¡ve never seen it). TCS campaign (to a point).

Tactical:

• Main focus: combat. Maneuver is used to get better positions. Almost no logistics if at all
• Troop units: small. Mostly ranged (at least at TL 3+). High troop class variation and formations, when applicable (usually at TL 4-), may be critical.
• Map: small units (usually hexes, but may also be zones). Lots of variation in terrain.
• Combat: mostly ranged (again, at TL3+), and distinction among ranged and close combat important.. Each combat represents a single firing unit.
• Non-Traveller examples: Squad leader (in all its versions), Panzer Leader, Tobruk, Air Force, Firefight...
• Traveller examples: Striker (for what I've read), AHL, RPG combat resolution, Mayday, Snapshoot.

Operational: (Mainly anything in between)

• Main focus: maneuver. Logisitcs simplified if represented at all. No production/reinforcements decision by the players.
• Troop units: highly variable
• Map: also highly variable
• Combat: again highly variable, but usually by contact or being in the same zone, but quite often some units have range combat capacity (e.g. artillery). Moderate troop class variation. Each combat represents an engagement.
• Non-Traveller examples: Creta/Malta (by AH), Hell's Higway, Caesar Legions, most Ardenas Battle games, Most NATO/WP games...
• Traveller games: Invasion Earth, FFW

Yes, I know this traveller games examples will be a :CoW:, but IMHO, the lack of player's influence on production and reinforcements, as well as its simplified logistics, bans them from the Strategical category, the size of units notwhithstanding.

And, of course, that's just my view, and YMMV...

 

[flykiller]

I thought I would get on my high horse and pretend to know something for a change.

welcome aboard.