Yeah, but then everybody's votes would disappear, wouldn't they?
T5 Only: Do you like T5?
- Thread starter Supplement Four
- Start date
Yeah, but then everybody's votes would disappear, wouldn't they?
Yup
Vladika
SOC-14 1K
Call me cynical but my prediction is that if "I'm disappointed in it--It needs a lot of work." Keeps leading that is exactly what is going to happen.
And that won't improve T5 in the slightest.
We can always look forward to T6 with hope and anticipation.
Not to derail the thread further, but Marc recently made noises about fixing the errata in MegaTraveller.
(No specific timeline, tho).
Vladika
SOC-14 1K
:rofl::rofl::rofl: I just spewed my coffee all over my keyboard and swear I'm about to bust a gut here. THAT was truly the funniest thing yet this year... or last.
≤Aramis does the happy dance≥
Nope. I don't reset polls due to disliking the results.
Okay, Vladika. You’re cynical.
I think it depends how you spin it. At this moment I see 43 ‘likes’ vs 37 ‘dislikes’. I also see 34 of the ‘dislikes’ think it can be fixed vs just 3 who reject it outright. Given some of the conversation threads since T5 came out, I would have expected more outright rejections.
So, given that it’s a small polling size, this is positive for T5. It was always going to be a hard sell ... yet of those who responded more people like it than don’t, and almost all those who don’t like it think it’s fixable rather than fundamentally flawed.
What we need, then, are more updates to the errata, more worked examples from people, an index, more supporting products (adventures, etc) ... Not exactly a ‘roadmap’ in the modern sense of the term but the direction seems clear enough and looks achievable. T5 might not have set the gaming world on fire when it launched but I’m optimistic for its long term success.
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Or... we have 20 out of 97 who strongly like (and a further 23 only prepared to say 'it's okay') on a board of generally committed Traveller fans.
Doesn't say much for the game's prospects in the broader market, unless you felt it would be more appealing to the general public than to Traveller aficionados. And I don't think anyone would argue that.
Thoom
SOC-11
The more I get into the rules the more I like it. It takes effort to wrap my mind around the rules. I think the presentation/editing needs a lot of work, but the content is great. It brought me back to Traveller and I'm definitively going to use T5 and run games with it for the coming years.
teams and complaints
So, I can pretty much guess where this went. Unfortunate, that I didn't have time to join. The CEO is Project Manager, and Architect. Next thing we see something like Win2000. Project teams needs parameters, subgroups and testers, etc.
Actually, I thought it would be an update to MT (extremely popular) and unpopular T4 was left on the shelf. All ease of statistics aside, i would add to the complaints; 1. a small ship universe changes the dynamics of game conversions to T5 and only represents a "small" group of refs/players, 2. character development is where everyone starts with a game system. An awkward system may be more robust but it's the original but leave new players (and old) confused. Killing PCs in development is an interesting risk if your able to do a senior character in 15 minutes. Otherwise it is painful.
I haven't read the entire book. As a reference book it adds value. Producing a healthy errata and re-writing into Little Black Book PDF format may be the saving grace for expansion of the product line. Ot perhaps T5 should become a line of optional references like FFS. Just sayin' :CoW:
I'm still trying to support this initiative but it clearly needs a future product line announcement.
So, I can pretty much guess where this went. Unfortunate, that I didn't have time to join. The CEO is Project Manager, and Architect. Next thing we see something like Win2000. Project teams needs parameters, subgroups and testers, etc.
Actually, I thought it would be an update to MT (extremely popular) and unpopular T4 was left on the shelf. All ease of statistics aside, i would add to the complaints; 1. a small ship universe changes the dynamics of game conversions to T5 and only represents a "small" group of refs/players, 2. character development is where everyone starts with a game system. An awkward system may be more robust but it's the original but leave new players (and old) confused. Killing PCs in development is an interesting risk if your able to do a senior character in 15 minutes. Otherwise it is painful.
I haven't read the entire book. As a reference book it adds value. Producing a healthy errata and re-writing into Little Black Book PDF format may be the saving grace for expansion of the product line. Ot perhaps T5 should become a line of optional references like FFS. Just sayin' :CoW:
I'm still trying to support this initiative but it clearly needs a future product line announcement.
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Vladika
SOC-14 1K
Okay, Vladika. You’re cynical.
This is true and I freely admit it.
"It's OK. I have no strong feeling about it. " I have a lot of old games around that fit this category. Didn't toss them out but don't play them or buy any further supporting material either.
"I'm disappointed in it--It needs a lot of work." Well if that's positive...
I guess I missed the "Would recommend to a friend"? Point being that the poll was pretty flawed.
What we need, then, are more updates to the errata, more worked examples from people, an index, more supporting products (adventures, etc) ... Not exactly a ‘roadmap’ in the modern sense of the term but the direction seems clear enough and looks achievable. T5 might not have set the gaming world on fire when it launched but I’m optimistic for its long term success.
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It will succeed if for no other reason than Marc will stop supporting any other version. That is exactly what he's done with every other Traveller line. Sure, I can buy old versions from him on disk, but, since 1977 he's never edited them even to the point of cleaning up spelling issues.
T4, Marc's 'I'm taking personal charge this time' because, as he stated, everyone else FUBARed Traveller because of poor oversight on his part. Good move; T4 came out so well didn't it?
Aramis nearly kicked me off this board due to my harsh statements about T5 before it came out. Ordered me to drop it. Told me directly that I insulted everyone who worked on it.
NOTHING I had to say wasn't true, and even aramis has many of the same complaints (as do many of the people involved in the 13 year old, and ongoing endeavor that is T5.)
The proof is in the pudding as the old story goes.
T5 will succeed UNTIL, as Hans has so eloquently put it:
We can always look forward to T6 with hope and anticipation.
Hans
Regardless, the order of business still starts with: fix the text.
Then efforts can be put in earnest into things like the Player's Guide et al.
Marc has collected Magazines and materials for inclusion in those CDs. There is a lot of work in that and any negotiations. We know from discussions that Not producing cleaned versions based on the history makes sense.
As I mentioned, project teams needs to be structured and work together even if some are volunteers. With a core team of 2-3 T5, had a challenge of too much experience and a desire to change many things.T4, Marc's 'I'm taking personal charge this time' because, as he stated, everyone else FUBARed Traveller because of poor oversight on his part. Good move; T4 came out so well didn't it?
T5 will succeed UNTIL...
I do recall the picture on the Kickstarter of Marc reviewing the final printing but a certain amount of damage occurs to a project when a primary participant is lost in the 11th hour. From someone very close to the project it probably looked great. Clearly, a small test team was needed to evaluate prior release. In the old days that was an evaluation by Marc, Frank or someone on the GDW team.
Going forward. It is a very salvageable product. It just needs a revision. T2k was given a revision. CT was given advanced products like High Guard.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
I've found the same. I'm not so sure it's Wil's fault. Even though he may agree with whatever T5 flawed point you happen to be pointing out, I believe in his heart that he's trying to be fair to the board--all opinions of T5--as a whole. Often I think Aramis is a bit too black & white, but I try not to lose sight of the fact that being a board moderator is a thankless job.
I don't think this board really wants to discuss and improve T5. I've tried. I've praised parts of the game and I've pointed out real problems with it. And, each time I did it (with the problems), I investigated and proffered solutions to problems. I always attempted to be constructive, offering solutions.
For that effort, I received comments like, "We're getting real tired of you hammering T5, S4. Real tired.", and "You only see the negative parts of T5 and aren't happy with anybody unless they use your version (meaning using the solutions I offered) of it."
Their focus was on the problems I found with T5. One poster even said something to the tune of, "Can't you even say anything positive about T5?" Obviously this person hadn't read my posts, because I've made several positive comments about the game--even going so far as to calling one of the concepts brilliant.
I feel as if the minority who like T5 have a goal to silence detractors. They don't want the game's flaws out in the open.
And, many times when I tried to find solutions, not many others were interested in solutions. Like the broken T5 rule for Spectacular Success. I showed, mathematically, how a task could become easier if the task was harder due to the influence of that rule--how, in some cases, a character is better off attempting a Hasty task (and thereby adding more dice to difficulty) with the result of increasing his chances of success.
What happened? Marc's reply (through Don) was that he didn't see anything wrong with the rule. T5 Lovers expressed little concern over the broken rule, one even saying that he really doesn't see a reason to change it.
So, I've justed bugged my eyes, blew the air out of my cheeks, and said, "To hell with it."
I put my T5 book in one of my boxes of RPGs and stuck that in the closet.
I'm not sure it has anything to do with T5 per se. I have the impression that there are people who simply won't have anything negative* said about Traveller.There was some criticism of Mongoose Traveller back when that came out, and the lamenting over that was great (Later the only Mongoose-bashing I ever saw mentioned was when people spoke out against Mongoose-bashers -- go figure...
)* Anything that they percieve as negative, that is.
Hans
thalassogen
SOC-12
To get something positive back to you: I REALLY LIKED the way how you addressed the problems and offered sensible solutions.
I am really sad to hear that people reacted in the way you described above.
With all the silence and long wait for updates based on obvious errata (last update in July) I think your decision to store away the tome of unfinished thoughts is a sound one and that I will follow your example.
Thoom
SOC-11
I really like your T5 tools Thalassogen. I often use the random gun generator for NPC generation for exemple. It would be nice to have an easy-to-copy-paste version of the result btw.
Thanks for sharing your efforts.
thalassogen
SOC-12
Glad to hear that!
For copy/paste, what would be most convenient? A multi-line textbox containing the result? Or a Javascript-powered button trying to copy to the clipboard? Any other suggestions?
BTW, I will update the site as soon as new errata arrives and am planning on doing more generators.
