2300 vs the Vilani

[SpaceBadger]

In GURPS Interstellar War, diseases caught from Terrans was a very big source of death in the Vilani Empire according to the source book. So while the bio-engineering might be a great idea, it could be that the transplanted human races just didn't experience the native biome so there were a limited number of diseases they'd be susceptible to.

That's kinda my take as well, and thank you for reanimating this thread :frankie: - I've been thinking over, and actually braindumping into OneNote some of my old ideas for a Trav/2300 mashup for a Proto-ATU. I had forgotten all about this thread, so thank you for bringing it up, although some cursing also, as this is a new angle from where I'd been going with it. But some of that stuff that I was doing was overly- (and visibly-) influenced by a particular SF novel that I read a few years back, before the brain injury of 2015... I prefer my borrowings to be a bit less obvious, a bit more subtle, so maybe bringing in the Vilani is security by obscurity, at least in a Traveller game... doesn't help me much if I ever want to use it in fiction, although thats's probably not a real possibility anymore thanks to my Old Pal (and Universal Blame Target!), The Brain Butcher!

Anyway, yeah, I like tne idea that the Ancients fixed everybody up, the prehumans that they took far and away as well as the prehumans that they left on Sol III, giving everybody immunities to whatever bugs were currently buggin' 'em, plus a general immunity boost to face such new bugs as might be encountered down the way. Maybe they cooked up new immunizations as needed for those prehumans with whom they were still in contact, upon the occasion of those rare bugs from other ecologies that found themselves able to prey upon those tasty prehumans, whom the Ancients still found useful and preferred un-preyed-upon. But then along came that nasty spat between Gramps and his descendants [or fill in the blank with your own Ancient War or Ancient Plague or other Bye-Bye, Ancients] and all of this Ancients Dunnit stopped being Done, and all the various scattered humans (or pre-) had to get along from that point forward on their own.

AAAAND...[yes, yes, I'm getting to that!] WHILE we all know that the Vilani needed their Shuglii to help them make Vland foods edible, and were hindered in their study of biology and medicine by having no near relatives among the local fauna, and vastly hindered in developing a germ theory bc Vland germs found them un-tasty, YES, MEANWHILE, we should acknowledge that pretty near this same situation was happening to every other subspecies of humaniti, except for those who got left at home on good old Sol III, or for whom a really big chunk of That Good Home Ecosphere was transported along to wherever they were taken. Because without that, well... they were just gonna miss out on a lot on the new disease front over the next 300,000 years.

While I can agree that folks wandering the stars will encounter the occasional bug (bacteria, virus, prion, whatever) that just happens to have their number, I'm afraid that with their poor levels of biological/medical science, if there is no existing race of humaniti that already has immunity to this bug then the result is going to be a dead colony, and death for everyone who had contact with the bug! (Or maybe sniffles or a rash, if that's the worst this bug can do.) But, while I can see the Vilani and others maybe getting really good at biohazard suits, and nasty showers to prevent bringing nasty biohazards back on board ship, I just don't see them going beyond that to figuring out immunizations and all the other necessary medical science to go along with it, being so, so, SO FAR BEHIND TERRANS IN NECESSARY EXPERIENCE!!! Just think, even in the past few millenia of recorded history we've had bugs crossing species barriers to/from humans, birds, reptiles, apes, elephants (maybe), insects, rodents, swine, practically every domesticated (pet or livestock) species I can think of... And most of those humans evolving in other places these past 300,000 years had none of that.

Yeah, I think Interstellar Wars vastly understated the case for Terran --> Vilani plagues, and that's even if the Terrans did nothing to intentionally weaponize smallpox, measles, anthrax, or various tropical hemorrhagic fevers.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

In GURPS Interstellar War, diseases caught from Terrans was a very big source of death in the Vilani Empire according to the source book. So while the bio-engineering might be a great idea, it could be that the transplanted human races just didn't experience the native biome so there were a limited number of diseases they'd be susceptible to

The curently unavailable, older Megatraveller Alien Vol.1 Vilani and Vargr started this avenue by going into more detail. Little bits like not having to worry about diseases during surgery(!). The native fauna not being compatible until "fermented", the shilugi caste (the food makers), etc.

I suspect, but cannot prove this was the case for every other Terran transplanted group. No reported major die-offs in the OTU like that. Zhodane Droyne do not count as that was directly due to Grandfather or one of his naughty sons. No reported disease die-off during the early Geonee/Vilani/Suerrat/Luriani/etc. interactions. Lots about wars, but no disease.
Curiously, this hypothesis fails with the Darrians. Darrians and Terrans met with no die off reported either. I forget, did they meet the Vilani during The Long Night? Before or after the Terrans did?

OTOH You can't prove a negative. It is poor science.

 

[BwapTED]

I think the Plague of Duskir was really caused by Terran Confederation bio-warfare aimed at the Vilani using tailored viruses.
It makes sense. The Terrans were grossly outmatched in numbers and industrial capacities. Fear of being overwhelmed might have driven the Terran regime to extreme measures carried out in great secrecy.


Of course, if the Vilani had discovered the truth in time they might have developed countermeasures and then fought on without mercy. I suppose they would institute a strict quarantine, a no quarter/no prisoners policy, and the genocidal use of nuclear weapons and orbital bombardment against Terran colonies and, if they could get there, Terra itself.

 

[AtlanticFriend]

In such a scenario I have to wonder how Vilani Jumpdrive technology competes with Terran nations' Stutterwarp engines. Are they the same thing developed by two different civilizations and through two different approaches ? Are they competing FTL technologies?

I can only regret I don't have the appropriate scientific background - nor mindset - to delve into that question.

 

[Murph]

In such a scenario I have to wonder how Vilani Jumpdrive technology competes with Terran nations' Stutterwarp engines. Are they the same thing developed by two different civilizations and through two different approaches ? Are they competing FTL technologies?

I can only regret I don't have the appropriate scientific background - nor mindset - to delve into that question.

Now that is a good thing to think about. I sort of started working on translating stutterwarp to CT Jump drives.

 

[Murph]

Ended up ditching the whole stutterwarp to CT Jump drives thing. Instead, just re-used the maps from Solomani Rim, and used CT jump drives. It was just too much work.

 

[kilemall]

Ended up ditching the whole stutterwarp to CT Jump drives thing. Instead, just re-used the maps from Solomani Rim, and used CT jump drives. It was just too much work.

You could just declare the radiation dump range is equivalent to J2 and use the Imperium map.

 

[mike wightman]

The history of the Zhodani is a bit different to other transplanted human races in that they evolved into two distinct races -
Homo Zhdatl and Homo Vlastebr. Hybridization and further evolutionary pressure produced Homo Zhdotlas.
These Zhodani were devastated by a plague.

The plague also affected humans. On Viepchakl, most humans
died within two weeks. Within a year, the plague's first effects
were being felt on humans on Zhdant. Within two years, the
human population was reduced by a third. Within ten years,
population had been reduced by two-thirds. The human die-back
ruined many of the gains of the past centuries. Vast areas of
the plains of eastern Dleqiats were abandoned, as were the
Qiknavrats settlements in Qiknavra. Cities were abandoned. Attention
turned to survival. By - 7,940, Zhdant had entered a
second Dark Age.

Makes me wonder what the plague would have done to the original transplanted human stock, not to mention its effects on other human races.

 

[McPerth]

In such a scenario I have to wonder how Vilani Jumpdrive technology competes with Terran nations' Stutterwarp engines.

In general I guess sutterwarp would compare better (at leat at this TL).

WIth J2, the Vilani limit, you can jump 2 parsecs in a week, by using 20% your ship tonnage in fuel.

WIth stutterwarp (let's say efficiency 2, not too high for a military ship) you can move this distance in 3 days, and need 40 hours (let's say 2 days more) to discharge it, while the fuel needed is minimal.

At higher TLs, as jump caapcity increases, things may be reversed, though (albeit the fuel disadvantage will increase)...

See that this fuel disadvantage means less payload, so it's nothing to be ignored.

 

[whulorigan]

In general I guess sutterwarp would compare better (at leat at this TL).

WIth J2, the Vilani limit, you can jump 2 parsecs in a week, by using 20% your ship tonnage in fuel.

WIth stutterwarp (let's say efficiency 2, not too high for a military ship) you can move this distance in 3 days, and need 40 hours (let's say 2 days more) to discharge it, while the fuel needed is minimal.

At higher TLs, as jump caapcity increases, things may be reversed, though (albeit the fuel disadvantage will increase)...

See that this fuel disadvantage means less payload, so it's nothing to be ignored.

But also keep in mind that you do NOT need to install an M-Drive on a stutterwarp ship unless you plan to land on a planet surface, and your in-system stutterwarp velocity (even with drop-off) will be superior to the average velocity of M-Drive acceleartion.

 

[McPerth]

But also keep in mind that you do NOT need to install an M-Drive on a stutterwarp ship unless you plan to land on a planet surface, and your in-system stutterwarp velocity (even with drop-off) will be superior to the average velocity of M-Drive acceleartion.

True, and even if your speed would not be superior, your maneuver capacity will, as any ship reaching those speeds with M-Drive would neet some time to turn arroun, while your SW would move in the direction you wanted...

As per weaponry. not sure what effect would it have, but I guess the stutter effect of the Jerome Drives would be a handicap for the enemy pulse lasers at least, and would probably confuse their sensors, while the lack of it on M-Drive ships would render the gravity sensors (so used to detect enemy sutterwarp) useless...

 

[Murph]

The more I thought about it, the more I decided to just stick with classic Traveller M and J drives. I found the Andy Slack Terra sector for 2300 in Challenge 75.

 

[whartung]

Actually, as I recall, the issue with Stutterwarp vs M-Drive/Jump is not the interstellar part. The SW ships would dominate in combat, literally running rings around the M-drive equipped ships. The SW ships would have their weapons tuned to the drives in contrast to the opponents who are shooting at these flickering blobs blipping around through space. Image SW like a rock skipping on water, where each time it hits water, the ship appears in normal space.

Now imagine that rock being nuclear weapons or short ranged bomb pumped lasers. The entire weapon doctrine is a complete mess between them.

 

[TheDark]

At the risk of reopening a can of worms, couldn't a stutterwarp drive be treated (mechanically, not fluff-wise) as a combination of a drive and a Black Globe?

Back in 2016 I did a mostly-fluff writeup of a Grand Unified GDW universe, pulling S:1889, Twilight, 2300, and Traveller all into a single (brief) history.

I'm also currently away from my books, but I seem to remember 2300 space weapons all being extremely short-ranged by Traveller standards, with the longest-ranged stuff being roughly equivalent to Mongoose Traveller Short Range. They're powerful, but there should be multiple intercept chances before they can get to their effective range. I don't remember where stutterwarp drives lose efficiency, but defending planets will be difficult if a Traveller flotilla can get inside the S-drive's limits.

 

[Murph]

Now that is very interesting, I had not thought of stutterwarp that way. But if you can have space combat with lasers and PBWs, it does not act like a screen I think....

 

[Ulsyus]

Actually, as I recall, the issue with Stutterwarp vs M-Drive/Jump is not the interstellar part. The SW ships would dominate in combat, literally running rings around the M-drive equipped ships. The SW ships would have their weapons tuned to the drives in contrast to the opponents who are shooting at these flickering blobs blipping around through space. Image SW like a rock skipping on water, where each time it hits water, the ship appears in normal space.

Now imagine that rock being nuclear weapons or short ranged bomb pumped lasers. The entire weapon doctrine is a complete mess between them.

That's a very visual example. I had imagined the detonation missiles from 2300 would have to pump out a LOT of beams in order to have a chance of hitting the target as it blipped in and out of real space. Against a regular TU vessel, they'd be like bay-weapon missiles - v big and doing an ugly amount of damage.

 

[Murph]

I would like to adapt detonation missiles to the CT/High Guard system.

 

[kilemall]

I would like to adapt detonation missiles to the CT/High Guard system.

Just offhand….

Warhead costs like nukes, whether you use SS4 costing or Striker nukes (15cm for turret, 25cm for bay).

PD and Repulsors still work but have a -3 DM chance. Laser check against Sand still required.

At TL12 detonation missiles convert to plasma/fusion bolt warheads, the larger missile equivalent of the PGMP/FGMP process. They retain the previous nuclear warhead costing, but are immune to Sand.

 

[mike wightman]

The good old casaba-howitzer

 

[Ulsyus]

Just offhand….

Warhead costs like nukes, whether you use SS4 costing or Striker nukes (15cm for turret, 25cm for bay).

PD and Repulsors still work but have a -3 DM chance. Laser check against Sand still required.

At TL12 detonation missiles convert to plasma/fusion bolt warheads, the larger missile equivalent of the PGMP/FGMP process. They retain the previous nuclear warhead costing, but are immune to Sand.

Sounds like a sensible progression (from a weapons-development perspective, insane from a humane perspective).

If they’re immune to sand would they be a weapon of choice after spinal mounts?