3D Star Map opinions?

[aramis]

I have yet to see a good generic algorithm for placing stars in free-form 3D. It's simple to randomize positions starting from a fixed origin, or within a large predefined block of space. I would like to procedurally assign a randomized volume to each star system and have a way to generate a neighbor based on volume and directional limits. Just a thought.

Irregular packing algorithms are what you're looking for. I know they exist, and are non-trivial. In 2d, however, a manual method can be used.

There is program for use with 2300 and Starfire, but I don't recall the name. Worse, the Starfire Forums are down, too.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Oh, and those staterooms only include one month's food storage. Each ton of cargo is 2000 person days. 49 years worth. (Best of JTAS p 30)

CT Beltstrike, p3 specifies 150 person/weeks per ton of cargo devoted to life support reserve consumables. That's 1050 person/days (2 years, 45 weeks, 5 days) per ton @ Cr150,000 per ton of cargo space devoted consumables.

Now, if you had a regenerative life support biome installed aboard ... that would be less of a problem ...

 

[kilemall]

CT Beltstrike, p3 specifies 150 person/weeks per ton of cargo devoted to life support reserve consumables. That's 1050 person/days (2 years, 45 weeks, 5 days) per ton @ Cr150,000 per ton of cargo space devoted consumables.

Now, if you had a regenerative life support biome installed aboard ... that would be less of a problem ...

The prudent STL Traveller would spec BOTH. Murphy is always riding shotgun.

 

[Straybow]

Irregular packing algorithms are what you're looking for. I know they exist, and are non-trivial. In 2d, however, a manual method can be used.

There is program for use with 2300 and Starfire, but I don't recall the name. Worse, the Starfire Forums are down, too.

Sounds interesting. I can't even find a link for a Starfire forums (except a ton of junk for Teen Titans).

 

[Straybow]

CT Beltstrike, p3 specifies 150 person/weeks per ton of cargo devoted to life support reserve consumables. That's 1050 person/days (2 years, 45 weeks, 5 days) per ton @ Cr150,000 per ton of cargo space devoted consumables.

Now, if you had a regenerative life support biome installed aboard ... that would be less of a problem ...

From Defense Logistics Agency:
The Meal, Ready-To-Eat (MRE) is designed to sustain an individual engaged in heavy activity such as military training or during actual military operations when normal food service facilities are not available. The MRE is a totally self-contained operational ration consisting of a full meal packed in a flexible meal bag. The full bag is lightweight and fits easily into military field clothing pockets. Each meal bag contains an entrée and a variety of other components as may be seen in the table of Menus. For the current production year, menus 1 - 12 are designated case A, and menus 13 - 24 are designated case B. Each shipping pallet contains 24 A cases and 24 B cases. The net weight per case is approximately 22 lbs. and 1.02 cubic feet, while each pallet weights 1,098 lbs. and is approximately 56.1 cubic feet.

So, that's 576 meals weighing ~½ metric ton, with about 8.86 filling up a Td. That comes to a bit over 5100 meals. For survival conditions not requiring heavy physical labor, probably 2 meals per day, that would be about 350 person-weeks. They have greatly overestimated the cargo space needed. If some of the food is dehydrated (MREs are not, except for some normally dry foods like oatmeal) it would take up less space and less mass.

Now, 150 weeks for kCr150, that's Cr1000/week! A whopping Cr71/meal @2/day, equivalent to about $284/meal in 2020s money. Or Cr48/meal @3/day, equivalent to $192 today. I have emergency food that's good for 25 years. It is less bulky and far cheaper (under $10 per day = Cr2.50/day).

 

[Condottiere]

Cargo bay, soil, night soil, potatoes.

 

[Spinward Flow]

They have greatly overestimated the cargo space needed.

That's FOOD.
What about air? Recycling, filtering, replenishment of losses and spare parts for systems?
What about water? Recycling, filtering, replenishment of losses and spare parts for systems?

We're talking about LIFE SUPPORT here ... not just "lunch" ...

that's Cr1000/week!

Standard stateroom life support overhead costs are Cr1000 per person per week.
LIVING in space "isn't cheap" ... as the saying goes.

In fact, crew salaries under Cr4000 per month are CHEAPER than stateroom life support overhead per month!

 

[aramis]

Sounds interesting. I can't even find a link for a Starfire forums (except a ton of junk for Teen Titans).

https://www.starfiredesign.com/ is the current site for the owner of the Starfire boardgame rights (Marvin, I think); Ian White and David Webber own the novel rights, and are why SDS has moved away from the Ed 1-3 official Starfire Setting. Webber may have sold the novel rights to White; the last novel was White and some other person, not Webber... but if you've read Webber's first 5 Honorverse novels, when I read them (and I consider them horribly bad, mind you), I was able to visualize all the action in Starfire terms. Webber was the line developer at TFG for 2nd and 3rd edition Starfire, and wrote the Starfire III rules for 1st ed.

 

[Condottiere]

I find the first six novelizations fairly tolerable if somewhat cringey, though the Salamander jumped the shark shortly thereafter.

 

[aramis]

That's FOOD.
What about air? Recycling, filtering, replenishment of losses and spare parts for systems?
What about water? Recycling, filtering, replenishment of losses and spare parts for systems?

We're talking about LIFE SUPPORT here ... not just "lunch" ...

Standard stateroom life support overhead costs are Cr1000 per person per week.
LIVING in space "isn't cheap" ... as the saying goes.

In fact, crew salaries under Cr4000 per month are CHEAPER than stateroom life support overhead per month!

Non-animal food generally counts as part of life support.
Collect the humidity from them for purified water.
Provide them light, needed minerals, water, and suitable soil microbiota, and they convert bodily wastes into oxygen, starches, protiens, and sugars.

 

[kilemall]

Non-animal food generally counts as part of life support.
Collect the humidity from them for purified water.
Provide them light, needed minerals, water, and suitable soil microbiota, and they convert bodily wastes into oxygen, starches, protiens, and sugars.

If I am paying high passage I definitely want the fresh stuff grown/raised stuff, no recycle vat print.

 

[Spinward Flow]

If I am paying high passage I definitely want the fresh stuff grown/raised stuff, no recycle vat print.

In Regenerative Life Support Biome terms ... I would (house rule) stipulate that:

1. Military/Paramilitary can use Environmental Control V-a minimum.
2. Commercial crew and middle passengers require Environmental Control V-b minimum.
3. Commercial high passengers require Environmental Control V-c minimum.

You can have "higher quality" regenerative biome life support than the minimum, of course.

 

[Straybow]

That's FOOD.
What about air? Recycling, filtering, replenishment of losses and spare parts for systems?
What about water? Recycling, filtering, replenishment of losses and spare parts for systems?

"Reserve consumables" would mostly be food, which certainly would include some water, and probably some air. Air and water recycling are systems, not stores.

Standard stateroom life support overhead costs are Cr1000 per person per week.
LIVING in space "isn't cheap" ... as the saying goes.

In fact, crew salaries under Cr4000 per month are CHEAPER than stateroom life support overhead per month!

"Standard" costs were pulled out of somebody's... ear.

 

[willtron3030]

I have yet to see a good generic algorithm for placing stars in free-form 3D. It's simple to randomize positions starting from a fixed origin, or within a large predefined block of space. I would like to procedurally assign a randomized volume to each star system and have a way to generate a neighbor based on volume and directional limits. Just a thought.

You can't use a "simple" random walk because, well, because reasons. But -- and I'm spit-balling here -- maybe you can create a "curated" random walk, where you generate N random vectors away from your last system, reject all that put the new system too close to or inside existing systems, and of those remaining, choose the position with the smallest average distance from the other systems. In my head, I think that will accumulate a cluster of systems like a slowly growing wad of yarn.

The first red flag I can come up with about this approach is that If you generate a LOT of system coordinates, your selection process will slow down unless you make some effort to reduce distance checking to not-near neighbors (branch-and-bound, or location-sensitive hashing).