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Antimatter

mike wightman

mike wightman

SOC-14 10K
The latest episode of Isaac Arthur's youtube channel is all about antimatter factories:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeJI3LUJzlA

Now the thing about most of his stuff is that it does not break the laws of physics and engineering as we know them today, so most of this stuff is potentially doable given sufficient resources, time, political will or dire necessity.

Now add Traveller gravitics to the mix - a cheap way of getting stuff into space and moving around the system thus making some of Isaacs more fanciful predictions much more 'possible'.

So what if Traveller ships and major power facilities are based on antimatter/matter reactors or antimatter catalysed fusion? What if industrial systems build huge solar arrays close to stars and produce antimatter as an energy storage medium or fuel if you want to call it that.

I'm going to develop such a setting.
 
Apart from some industrial infrastructure in the background, it would have much the same effect as just removing fuel requirements from ships and vehicles?
 
Fine, as long as its only for some special purpose; e.g. propulsion or weaponry as it is extremey costly to manufacture.


Antimatter has to be created and takes fantastic amounts of energy to create tiny amounts (mc²), just as small amounts of matter or antimatter can unleash colossal amounts of energy.

Unless you can harvest it from some source, it has to be manufactured at great cost. Thus, it can never be used to power a civilization.
 
You haven't watched the video have you?

Once you have a space based industry making solar panels for peanuts the cost of your antimatter factory drops.
 
mike wightman said:
You haven't watched the video have you?

Once you have a space based industry making solar panels for peanuts the cost of your antimatter factory drops.
Click to expand...

The solar factories powering the antimatter farm? Why not use them to power society instead. Using their energy to make antimatter for powerplants would be ridiculously wasteful.

Yes, I did watch the video. He admits around 21:40 that it would likely never be practical as a general-purpose energy source. It's could be economical if an antimatter resource could be found and harvested.

The whole antimatter trope only makes sense for specific must-have applications where nothing else will do (weapons, propulsion).
 
shaunhilburn said:
The solar factories powering the antimatter farm? Why not use them to power society instead. Using their energy to make antimatter for powerplants would be ridiculously wasteful. ...
Click to expand...

True, but sometimes you want the energy in places where solar isn't viable. The deep space research vessel Oort Explorer wants a nice, dense power source that will deliver way out where it's going to be working.
 
Carlobrand said:
True, but sometimes you want the energy in places where solar isn't viable. The deep space research vessel Oort Explorer wants a nice, dense power source that will deliver way out where it's going to be working.
Click to expand...


A perfect example of specialty application where there is no better substitute; it's "must-have" and mission critical, so the extra cost is worth it.
 
shaunhilburn said:
A perfect example of specialty application where there is no better substitute; it's "must-have" and mission critical, so the extra cost is worth it.
Click to expand...

Just about ANY ship is going to want antimatter, even when it's deep in system. Nothing gives more ΔV per gram; light might be able to tie it, if you can make a near perfect light storage bottle.

Go, watch the video. Isaac's videos are all very well grounded in physics - it's what his degrees are in.
 
aramis said:
Just about ANY ship is going to want antimatter, even when it's deep in system. Nothing gives more ΔV per gram.
Click to expand...
The thing is, EVERY ship is going to want it, and it's quite literally a game-changer. It breaks so many aspects of Traveller. Refueling is a major point and antimatter is practically unlimited fuel, so no more refuelling. No need for a High Guard during gas giant refueling or SDBs to defend the refueling points. A type A trader can go anywhere with multiple Jump-1 and no fuel constraints. No more "mains". Crossing the Great Rift - no problem. The Zhos and Vargs can strike anywhere.

aramis said:
Go, watch the video. Isaac's videos are all very well grounded in physics - it's what his degrees are in.
Click to expand...
I've followed his YouTube channel for a few years now. I saw this video as well.
 
shaunhilburn said:
The solar factories powering the antimatter farm? Why not use them to power society instead. Using their energy to make antimatter for powerplants would be ridiculously wasteful.
Click to expand...
Because you need a way to store the energy the solar power station is collecting - think of the antimatter as a manufactured fuel, an energy store.

The vast majority of a star's energy is going to waste, only a tiny percentage makes planetfall, so using even a tiny fraction of the star's wasted energy in an inefficient process to harvest antimatter to power your ships and antimatter catalysed fusion reactors is still a worthwhile endeavour.

The whole antimatter trope only makes sense for specific must-have applications where nothing else will do (weapons, propulsion).
Click to expand...
Such as the need for a concentrated source of terrawatts of energy in a starship?
 
shaunhilburn said:
The thing is, EVERY ship is going to want it, and it's quite literally a game-changer. It breaks so many aspects of Traveller.
Click to expand...
I agree which is why I want to throw it around and see what comes out of the discussion.

Refueling is a major point and antimatter is practically unlimited fuel, so no more refuelling. No need for a High Guard during gas giant refueling or SDBs to defend the refueling points. A type A trader can go anywhere with multiple Jump-1 and no fuel constraints. No more "mains". Crossing the Great Rift - no problem. The Zhos and Vargs can strike anywhere.
Click to expand...
Depends on how much antimatter you have onboard and how much jump fuel and how much reaction mass. I still believe in the maneuver drive requiring reaction mass as per CT and TNE.
The point you raise is a good one.


I've followed his YouTube channel for a few years now. I saw this video as well.
Click to expand...
I'd love to see a sci fi setting or game built from some of his assumptions.
 
I dunno. M-AM reaction is just going to produce gamma rays. Gammas aren't much good for useful energy production.


I haven't given his antimatter podcast a listen.
 
While appreciating the value of a really dense power source like anti-matter, I'm not real thrilled with the idea of my ship blowing up if the power plant fails. I rather like the fact that the fusion plant will just shut down if it breaks. You'd have to have a really mature antimatter technology before I'd expect to see it used anyplace but government and research.
 
mike wightman said:
Because you need a way to store the energy the solar power station is collecting - think of the antimatter as a manufactured fuel, an energy store.
Click to expand...
Consumption efficiency is always lower than production efficiency, so the stored energy will be less than the energy used to create it. In the case of antimatter, a whole lot less. No civilization will be powered with a manufactured energy store. Ships and installations, perhaps. Vehicles. Niche applications.

Think of antimatter like gasoline, another manufactured energy store. The refinery uses a lot of grid electricity to distill it from crude. Running a gasoline generator (electricity > gasoline > electricity) is wasteful, but there are a lot of scenarios there is no alternative. But no one would use a gasoline generator if grid electricity were readily available.

mike wightman said:
Such as the need for a concentrated source of terrawatts of energy in a starship?
Click to expand...
Starships, yes. In the present day, it has some medical and research applications in tiny quantities. Broader applications for antimatter don't appear in Traveller canon until TL 17 or so.

I made a spreadsheet to expand the canon TL tables. I didn't see much use for antimatter beyond weapons and propulsion:

TL 17
Contraterrene particle beam weapon
Rapid pulse antimatter X, Y, and Z guns
Antimatter satchel charge or mining explosive
"Photon" torpedo - basically a 300 G space combat missile with a variable yield antimatter warhead
Shipboard AM powerplant (per unit mass 5E+14 times more yield than p-p fusion)
Brown dwarf stellification seed

TL 19
Micro-missiles with low-yield antiproton warheads - these are like propelled grenades
Improved photon torpedo (shielded with conformal sectional black armor)

TL 20
Positron beam rifle, beta decay rifle
Antimatter battery 5,000 MWh/kg

At TL 22, black holes and manufactured black holes begin to supercede antimatter. Again, weapons and propulsion. Hawking paperplants. Black hole decay warheads.
 
Carlobrand said:
While appreciating the value of a really dense power source like anti-matter, I'm not real thrilled with the idea of my ship blowing up if the power plant fails. I rather like the fact that the fusion plant will just shut down if it breaks.
Click to expand...
Yes, powerplant hits would be a bitch.
 
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