Battle of Two Suns error
- Thread starter Blue Ghost
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Supplement Four
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Does is depend on whether you are looking at a sector map or a sub-sector map?
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
It's not an error.
It is a result of MWM not recalling every early Traveller supplement and providing us with the latest version
Look at the original S:3 and A:1 you will see that the subsector format was different back then - every subsector was numbered 0101-0810, there was no sector format.
It is a result of MWM not recalling every early Traveller supplement and providing us with the latest version
Look at the original S:3 and A:1 you will see that the subsector format was different back then - every subsector was numbered 0101-0810, there was no sector format.
I guess, but the wiki references the online map in the window on the right side of the entry.
Ahhh... the Wiki... destroying Traveller one entry at a time...
You read that that entry and all you found wrong was the hex number, Blue?
The Wiki gremlins apparently stol... ahem... "borrowed" an idea from this thread and then proceeded to implement it in their usual inimitable fashion. Take this sentence for example:
A task force from the Vland Sector was fighting in the Marches? We know the war began, was fought, and was over before any instructions regarding it's conduct could be received from Capital. Our Absent Friend Hans once calculated that period out to be roughly 16 months.
Yes, despite that, a task force from Vland still had enough time to receive orders, redeploy to the Marches, and fight in the Battle of Two Suns? Sure, pull the other one.
The Dusa subsector is subsector M of the Vland sector. That's the lower left corner. It's tucked in on the other side of the Great Rift and it's nearly empty. It contains maybe six systems and the only navy base is at Pirrom bordering Dagudashaag.
A jump4 course between Pirrom and Regina is 111 parsecs long and takes 28 jumps.
Defending the six systems of the Dusa subsector is apparently a high priority because the 34th Fleet has enough ships on hand to sent a task force consisting of two Plankwell dreadnoughts, two heavy cruisers, eight P.F. Sloan fleet escorts, and - best of all - four Nolikian-class battle riders.
Mind you, the 34th didn't detach a Lurenti-class battle carrier or any other battle carrier to lift those four riders those 111+ parsecs nor apparently was any battle carrier and it's organic fighter wing present at the battle despite the fact SMC explicitly places the 214th Battle Rider Squadron there.
Instead the non-jump capable Nolikians magically flew more than 111 parsecs from their base in Pirrom to fight in deep space between Menorb and Yres.
That's our Wiki for you!
You read that that entry and all you found wrong was the hex number, Blue?
The Wiki gremlins apparently stol... ahem... "borrowed" an idea from this thread and then proceeded to implement it in their usual inimitable fashion. Take this sentence for example:
A task force from the Vland Sector was fighting in the Marches? We know the war began, was fought, and was over before any instructions regarding it's conduct could be received from Capital. Our Absent Friend Hans once calculated that period out to be roughly 16 months.
Yes, despite that, a task force from Vland still had enough time to receive orders, redeploy to the Marches, and fight in the Battle of Two Suns? Sure, pull the other one.
The Dusa subsector is subsector M of the Vland sector. That's the lower left corner. It's tucked in on the other side of the Great Rift and it's nearly empty. It contains maybe six systems and the only navy base is at Pirrom bordering Dagudashaag.
A jump4 course between Pirrom and Regina is 111 parsecs long and takes 28 jumps.
Defending the six systems of the Dusa subsector is apparently a high priority because the 34th Fleet has enough ships on hand to sent a task force consisting of two Plankwell dreadnoughts, two heavy cruisers, eight P.F. Sloan fleet escorts, and - best of all - four Nolikian-class battle riders.
Mind you, the 34th didn't detach a Lurenti-class battle carrier or any other battle carrier to lift those four riders those 111+ parsecs nor apparently was any battle carrier and it's organic fighter wing present at the battle despite the fact SMC explicitly places the 214th Battle Rider Squadron there.
Instead the non-jump capable Nolikians magically flew more than 111 parsecs from their base in Pirrom to fight in deep space between Menorb and Yres.
That's our Wiki for you!
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.... never let facts get in the way of a good story
Seriously, this is truly the only Traveller site I ever come to, so for me this place and it's various links (other than the various books I've bought over the years) are my one-stop-shop for everything Traveller.
As a result, all the quirts you've found, to me, are unmitigated Traveller dogma. Anyway, I was just referencing it for my latest Adventure Seed blog entry-- "The Guns of Navarrone"
. Oh well.You know ... sometimes I wish it was 1982 or 1984 all over again, when I could actually find players, and temporal rifts in write ups weren't such a big deal.
.... never let facts get in the way of a good story
Seriously, this is truly the only Traveller site I ever come to, so for me this place and it's various links (other than the various books I've bought over the years) are my one-stop-shop for everything Traveller.
As a result, all the quirts you've found, to me, are unmitigated Traveller dogma. Anyway, I was just referencing it for my latest Adventure Seed blog entry-- "The Guns of Navarrone"
You know ... sometimes I wish it was 1982 or 1984 all over again, when I could actually find players, and temporal rifts in write ups weren't such a big deal.
Mistakes get made at the wiki and with so many different authors and sources, it's impossible to reconcile the myriad sources when they are conflicting. When you add retcons in, and fan material, the heady brew gets even headier... Plus canon doesn't practically exist for many items since an original citation often gets later removed by ex cathedra statements or later canon.
Plus, some fans will simply never be pleased pretty much no matter what is there. But many to most can be pleased. It's not for everyone.
I personally challenge WhipSnade to create a better wiki. I'd love to see what he could come up with. It would be a lot more productive than the naysaying. Kvetching is cheap.
Still, the vast majority of fans and authors including Marc Miller use the wiki as a starting source for much Traveller research... which is what is was designed to do. Be a starting point. Not to be perfect.
Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
And as a wiki, it's under a continual state of improvement. Perhaps that improvement is non-linear, but it gets better over time as inconsistencies are removed and problems ironed out. As it is used.
That's the idea, anyway. I'm sure Whipsnade could be permitted to correct that entry, right? Bad facts bother me too.
That's the idea, anyway. I'm sure Whipsnade could be permitted to correct that entry, right? Bad facts bother me too.
Yes. If it is wrong, fix it or modify it to make it clearer. And make sure you cite your sources in a reference section at the bottom of the page.
Also, when editing individual lines/sentences within a given entry, the following can be placed at the end of a sentence:
{{Page cite|name= |page= |citeName= }},
which will place a superscript number at the end of the sentence and create a corresponding footnote in the references section with the exact book and page reference for a given citation. Non-Canon entries can simply insert the word "(Non-canon)" after the name or after a page number, if it is a reference to a non-canonical work, and the word "(Non-canon)" will appear in the footnote.
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I'm tempted to geek out on this ... but will refrain. This is a game with semi-serious "let's get it right" overtones, wargamers and RPGers being the kind of people that we are, so I'm surprised that liberties would be taken. However I'm not bothered by it, because the real deal is printed in books and now burned on official "canon" CDs.
If it's a big deal for people, then maybe the Traveller wiki can include additions to entries , maybe something called "official derivations" or "ATUs" ... something where fans can include their interpretations to share with other fans.
I remember my ten shot battery pack for the Laser pistol in Mission on Mithril. It's not canon, but I've brought it up here, and it might be fun for other or newer players to read about on the wiki with some kind of "Fan Entry".
Just my take.
I believe one of the suggestions that has been fielded previously is to have an extra tab or two at the top of the pages next to the "Main" and "Discussion" tabs perhaps called "Non-canon" or "Fanon" (or something similar).
One of the problems, I believe, is that at the moment the term "Non-canon" on the Wiki is too broad. Good material published (for example) by the Keith Brothers in High Passage Magazine, or Far Traveller, or by Gamelords, or material by Paranoia Press is all technically Non-canon "Apocrypha", but Fanon-created material invented entirely by a typical Traveller fan currently falls under the same Non-canon category. And those two are very different things.
It seems to me that a special tab for Fan-created material should be on the page if Fanon material is to be retained. That would leave the Main Page for the Canon material and published Non-canon sources, properly footnoted and annotated in the References section.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Wookieepedia has larger issues with fanon, and clearly separates them.
Yeah, I think a "Fan-canon" or "ATU" or something would be good for that site.
He isn't just permitted to correct the entry. He has been invited and welcomed to do so for a long time.
Whipsnade is full of knowledge... and complaints. The wiki and other Traveller efforts could really use his help if he was so motivated.
Shabbat Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
The wiki states this very clearly:
"The Traveller RPG Wiki is not considered a canonical source for any Traveller materials. If you, as an author or pedant, need to cite Traveller canon we encourage you to refer to the original primary source material."
It's not a big deal for the vast majority of folks.
You are welcomed to do so, Blue Ghost! Please.
Shabbat Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
I’m not very long here, but it’s continually fascinating to me the way some of us feel canon is so very clear, others do not, and that there’s really not so many easy mechanics in place to verify canonicity. It seems pretty organic, even with the hermeneutic posted.
It seems like it’s cool to question what’s written, especially on a resource that’s been designed from the bar napkin stage forward to be rewritten. By anyone.
It doesn’t feel so cool when we use diminutive versions of each other’s names. Or we lash out.
It seems like it’s cool to question what’s written, especially on a resource that’s been designed from the bar napkin stage forward to be rewritten. By anyone.
It doesn’t feel so cool when we use diminutive versions of each other’s names. Or we lash out.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
I think we're going to have to tab it, between what's generally accepted as canon, and what's not.
The problem is that, at least for spacecraft, you'd have half a dozen different interpretations of performance from differing editions, based on the ship design formulas they have.
So if the hundred kay tonne Sylea class battleship from supplement eight is canon, you'd have to explain why the two hundred kay one from Mongoose isn't, or if it's a later class reusing the name.
But if the above explanation isn't canon, you'd have to place it under a different tab marked legendary or fanon.
The problem is that, at least for spacecraft, you'd have half a dozen different interpretations of performance from differing editions, based on the ship design formulas they have.
So if the hundred kay tonne Sylea class battleship from supplement eight is canon, you'd have to explain why the two hundred kay one from Mongoose isn't, or if it's a later class reusing the name.
But if the above explanation isn't canon, you'd have to place it under a different tab marked legendary or fanon.
I really don't want to post this, and I don't want to get off topic, but I typically don the fanboy hat when ethics are radically altered to serve some agenda. In media it's to help inspire and guide social values. So, at Star Fleet Games I'd angrily, ferociously, and with passion argue for original Trek, and dismiss and otherwise trash The Next Generation because of the social psychology that had been injected into the then new show.
With Traveller, as per the rules, there "is no prime directive" and other trappings of what any service, especially the scouts or even the navy or marines, are all about. So, "lashing out", for me, has a basis, but I see no reason to do so for the Sylea.
The game's evolved since 1981 or thereabouts when I was fighting off pirates using Snapshot. But, like all fictional properties, even mythology, everybody has their version of what is and what should be. Traveller, like Gamma World, Blue Planet, Jovian Chronicles, Intruder Alert, you determine your ethics. The details of the tech are altered to suit the game and players, but are not altered to serve some social agenda. And that's when I get fired up.
I get a sense that someone needed that explanation, so there it is.
I am concerned that the Sylea is going to be outclassed by being grandfathered out of the official scheme of things because Keith or whoever arbitrarily assigned her a "big mass" number before the game's big starship mechanic evolved to the point that it has now. I think for continuity sake it ought to remain a BB, but perhaps her tonnage needs to be upgraded.
Some deck plans would be cool too.
With Traveller, as per the rules, there "is no prime directive" and other trappings of what any service, especially the scouts or even the navy or marines, are all about. So, "lashing out", for me, has a basis, but I see no reason to do so for the Sylea.
The game's evolved since 1981 or thereabouts when I was fighting off pirates using Snapshot. But, like all fictional properties, even mythology, everybody has their version of what is and what should be. Traveller, like Gamma World, Blue Planet, Jovian Chronicles, Intruder Alert, you determine your ethics. The details of the tech are altered to suit the game and players, but are not altered to serve some social agenda. And that's when I get fired up.
I get a sense that someone needed that explanation, so there it is.
I am concerned that the Sylea is going to be outclassed by being grandfathered out of the official scheme of things because Keith or whoever arbitrarily assigned her a "big mass" number before the game's big starship mechanic evolved to the point that it has now. I think for continuity sake it ought to remain a BB, but perhaps her tonnage needs to be upgraded.
Some deck plans would be cool too.
Can point me at one or more specific pages in the wookipedia where this separation occurs? The general notion has been pointed out previously, but not specific examples.
There are features and extensions installed and configured in Wikia, the host for Wookipedia, that we can't install on the Traveller Wiki due to various technical issues. So I may not be able to exactly duplicate the Wookipedia, but I can see how the system works.
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