Has Agent changed your vision of the Third Imperium?

[Nathan Brazil]

"...for the good of the body. This is the will of Landru."

The Agent's mandate, is for responsibility to the Imperium as a whole as well as it's individual member planets. Abandoning soon to be victims to their fate is not unknown in the OTU. I forget the details, but the MT Alien Vilani book has that "hero" who decisively abandoned a fleet in Rebellion because the resource expenditure to commit was not worth the overall moral or morale victory.

This does make me think though. What measures do the other empires have in place or are their societies "superior" because are they inherently more stable or resistant to these dangers?

 

[AtlanticFriend]

This does make me think though. What measures do the other empires have in place or are their societies "superior" because are they inherently more stable or resistant to these dangers?

Or they can be more reckless and accept the risk of not scrubbing worlds when weighed against the possibilities of the populaton of said worlds coming up with cures and solutions that will benefit the entire empire?

The chapter that surprised me was the one with the young empress. If that kind of power is available to any (or every) Agent, how can the Empire's political structure survive, and what is to stop power-hungry agents to basically do as they wish once activated?

 

[Fovean]

The chapter that surprised me was the one with the young empress. If that kind of power is available to any (or every) Agent, how can the Empire's political structure survive, and what is to stop power-hungry agents to basically do as they wish once activated?

My reaction as well.

 

[AtlanticFriend]

My reaction as well.

Now that I think of it, the Agent himself gives in to the temptation of power when he takes revenge upon the noble family that screwed his former self over his last resting place. It is morally acceptable, but sounds like an abuse of his administrative power. in regard to the crisis that acti ated him. And yet there are no consequences - there can't even be any given his level of authority.

So who watches the watchmen indeed? Even if they are selected from hardcore loyalists they ARE given absolute power and can supersede basically any other authority. They are tyrants in the old, Antique sense of the word - one could fear that after one too many scrubbed world or gut-wrenching decision, an Agent could basically snap and decide "to Hell with the Empire, to Hell with the Regents/Emperors/Empresses, let's make me supreme ruler under permanent article 97 emergency powers". And since basically the recourse to article 97 is never publicly declared, no-one but the "deputized" Imperial forces and officials would never even know. After all, what the Agent does to the grafting noble family is, while morally fair,

In this perspective, the Agency seems to be a very risky affair (except possible in the case of a Zhodani Consulate Agent, since he could be "blocked" from being tempted to use his authority for anything else but the resolution of the crisis activating him).

I may have missed something though, I'll have to look it up again.

 

[mike wightman]

The agent wafers may have warrant level authority, but what happens if more than one agent is activated at a time?

Something that never happened in the book was for there to be a decider agent, a general agent, and admiral agent all activated at the same time to discuss options.

Is it only the Bland wafer that gets warrant authority or do the other agent wafer types get it too?

Also, why did Norris have to go to all the trouble to get an Imperial Warrant when all he had to do was activate an agent and explain the situation...

 

[Nathan Brazil]

The agent wafers may have warrant level authority, but what happens if more than one agent is activated at a time?

Something that never happened in the book was for there to be a decider agent, a general agent, and admiral agent all activated at the same time to discuss options.

Is it only the Bland wafer that gets warrant authority or do the other agent wafer types get it too?

Also, why did Norris have to go to all the trouble to get an Imperial Warrant when all he had to do was activate an agent and explain the situation...

Maybe Marc forgot? look at my signature :rofl: More seriously, I'm hooked. I will go with try to integrate. What happened to all those Rimward wafers in the Solomani Autonomous Region when it became the Solomani Confederation? And later during the War of Imperial Aggression, er, Solomani Rim War? What happened to the all the wafers by The Rebellion? Did they factionalize too? o:

This wafer concept did not exist in old CT, except a version of it in Adventure 6: Expedition to Zhodane with personality overlays overriding an original personality. If anyone knows of a Traveller reference to this wafer thing prior to T5 or the Agent book please let me know.

A. The wafers can only be activated by a automated system? - To prevent tampering by political Admirals who don't want to get knee-capped :rofl: or bothersome brainwashing parasite species, or plotting Dukes, you might want to make the activation process tamper proof.

B.Bland didn't know, or approves - Norris did not want the IN, other agencies or individuals to know until it was too late. Imagine anyone else with FAR LESS noble goals and greater ambition getting a hold of set of Edict 97 docs... also depending on Bland's experiences, Bland might say no. He killed an Empress, an upstart wannabe Archduke would be less burdensome. Now imagine Bland waking up for some other reason during the FFW. He finds out. Bland has a month before he "dies". What is he going to do? In any case upon review, did this "inapproprate" action help or hinder the Imperium, Bland's mandate? Should Bland arrange for Norris' later arrest/execution?

C.The wafer program has an expiration date or was sunset? Bland used a special code override to take control of a ship. His internal dialog indicated that the override code algorithm would only be good until the end of the millennium. This got me thinking.:coffeegulp: The Wafers were made with the best Tech IY 300's could provide. But by the 1100s?

OR most chilling for the trillions of Imperial subects
D.Bland let the above happen because he felt it was healthier for the Imperium! :xh:
He exceeded his original Quarantine mission programing. We know he grew in experience because he used a different way of handling crew during the two exterminations (cutting the minor digit or Bwap eye the second time around) and by offing the Empress.

 

[Grav_Moped]

I'm ok with option C, along with positing the Agent wafer system was discontinued around 1000IE. If it was superseded by a different means of accomplishing the same ends, that method was not up to the task of stopping the Civil War.

Maybe they went back to having Quarantine Fleets?

 

[Grav_Moped]

Maybe Marc forgot? look at my signature :rofl:

It wasn't that he forgot, it's that he hadn't written it yet!

More seriously, I'm hooked. I will go with try to integrate. What happened to all those Rimward wafers in the Solomani Autonomous Region when it became the Solomani Confederation? And later during the War of Imperial Aggression, er, Solomani Rim War? What happened to the all the wafers by The Rebellion? Did they factionalize too? o:

This wafer concept did not exist in old CT, except a version of it in Adventure 6: Expedition to Zhodane with personality overlays overriding an original personality. If anyone knows of a Traveller reference to this wafer thing prior to T5 or the Agent book please let me know.

A. The wafers can only be activated by a automated system? - To prevent tampering by political Admirals who don't want to get knee-capped :rofl: or bothersome brainwashing parasite species, or plotting Dukes, you might want to make the activation process tamper proof.

B.Bland didn't know, or approves - Norris did not want the IN, other agencies or individuals to know until it was too late. Imagine anyone else with FAR LESS noble goals and greater ambition getting a hold of set of Edict 97 docs... also depending on Bland's experiences, Bland might say no. He killed an Empress, an upstart wannabe Archduke would be less burdensome. Now imagine Bland waking up for some other reason during the FFW. He finds out. Bland has a month before he "dies". What is he going to do? In any case upon review, did this "inapproprate" action help or hinder the Imperium, Bland's mandate? Should Bland arrange for Norris' later arrest/execution?

C.The wafer program has an expiration date or was sunset? Bland used a special code override to take control of a ship. His internal dialog indicated that the override code algorithm would only be good until the end of the millennium. This got me thinking.:coffeegulp: The Wafers were made with the best Tech IY 300's could provide. But by the 1100s?

OR most chilling for the trillions of Imperial subects
D.Bland let the above happen because he felt it was healthier for the Imperium! :xh:
He exceeded his original Quarantine mission programing. We know he grew in experience because he used a different way of handling crew during the two exterminations (cutting the minor digit or Bwap eye the second time around) and by offing the Empress.

I'm ok with option C, along with positing the Agent wafer system was discontinued around 1000IE. If it was superseded by a different means of accomplishing the same ends, that method was not up to the task of stopping the Civil War.

Maybe they went back to having Quarantine Fleets once they realized the implications of the Agent system? It would have taken them long enough...

D is a really interesting notion -- it suggests that ripping the Imperium apart was the least-appalling option! If that's the best that could be done, try to imagine what could be worse...

 

[Jame]

I quite enjoyed Agent.
Has it changed my opinion of the 3I? No, not really, because I understand that it was written quite recently, and also that my view of the 3I is different from Marc's - his just happens to be the official version of the 3I, and I'm fine with that.

 

[mike wightman]

I'm ok with option C, along with positing the Agent wafer system was discontinued around 1000IE. If it was superseded by a different means of accomplishing the same ends, that method was not up to the task of stopping the Civil War.

If they discontinue the Agent wafers what happens to them? Archived? Destroyed?

If I were Bland i would have a copy or two stored somewhere...

as to stopping the Rebellion - what if the Rebellion is a necessary event?

 

[AtlanticFriend]

If they discontinue the Agent wafers what happens to them? Archived? Destroyed?

If I were Bland i would have a copy or two stored somewhere...

as to stopping the Rebellion - what if the Rebellion is a necessary event?

That would make the Agency a Rebellion faction in itself, almost, using the others to further its goals. But whatever plan the Agents had probably dissolved into Virus-induced madness, as I suppose wafers would be affected.

 

[mike wightman]

I think the wafer personality and the virus personality would fight it out - sometimes the virus would win and the wafer become corrupted with the virus personality, in other cases the wafer personality would win.

In very rare cases you may end up with a hybrid personality...

I have posted somewhere that Agent and wafer tech has changed my explanation of how virus came to be - if wafer tech can store the memories and personality of a person on a chip, then what happens if you copy the personality and memories of the silicon based Cymberline organism and weaponise it...

 

[aramis]

If they discontinue the Agent wafers what happens to them? Archived? Destroyed?

Quite likely, both. Transitioned to overlays from being chips. The chips get destroyed, the personalities get reused.

If I were Bland i would have a copy or two stored somewhere...

It is pretty near explicit that he's stashed himself and created a backup and recombination drop point in the marches.

as to stopping the Rebellion - what if the Rebellion is a necessary event?

You mean you think it wasn't?

The Agent being involved in triggering the Rebellion would explain a number of things that nagged me in LD A-M, and LD N-Z, and in MT IE. Niggling little things.

He was involved in the first Civil War, personally assassinated a reigning Emperess, kills clinically and without visible remorse... but also has clear empathy. So, not even a sociopath... No, he feels justified in all his casual violence. He's a fanatic. Worse, a fanatic

Not just any fanatic... a Jingoist who can expend a borrowed body for the good of the Imperium, and know that he's clued himself in, but not have the details known by his other selves, because each self-expended knows that they shan't be in the collation. I highly suspect he manages to update his instances in the fleet, used or not. And, even if the program was discontinued and all chips ordered destroyed, we know a couple excaped... and at least one lasted longer than the expected 4 weeks...

At least he's not about terror... or is he?

 

[aramis]

That would make the Agency a Rebellion faction in itself, almost, using the others to further its goals. But whatever plan the Agents had probably dissolved into Virus-induced madness, as I suppose wafers would be affected.

Not of need. It depends upon what the goal is. If the goal was stability, it could be a failed goal, a miscalculation...

Especially if the Solomani Rim War was triggered by an instance (or several) of the Agent.

I think the wafer personality and the virus personality would fight it out - sometimes the virus would win and the wafer become corrupted with the virus personality, in other cases the wafer personality would win.

In very rare cases you may end up with a hybrid personality...

I have posted somewhere that Agent and wafer tech has changed my explanation of how virus came to be - if wafer tech can store the memories and personality of a person on a chip, then what happens if you copy the personality and memories of the silicon based Cymberline organism and weaponise it...

I suspect the Implant Chip program met a Cymbeline chip and thought, "Hey, we have ths guy who does what's needed for the imperum... at any cost... how about we see if we can make him take over the enemy?"

That would explain why the virus is so fragmented in response, and yet seems hell-bent on unifying the Imperium...

 

[AtlanticFriend]

I have posted somewhere that Agent and wafer tech has changed my explanation of how virus came to be - if wafer tech can store the memories and personality of a person on a chip, then what happens if you copy the personality and memories of the silicon based Cymberline organism and weaponise it...

Actually that gets me thinking. To Hell with anagathics, the wafer grants one full immortality. The psyche is intact, and you can "inhabit" younger/better/stranger bodies as you see fit, at least for some time and then switch to another (reminds me of the Prez character in the Incal series) without any need for a medical process.

So, why hasn't an Emperor already made himself rule the Empire forever ? Obviously they know the possibility exist, since Edict 97 seems common knowledge and so does the fact that cold storage is possible. Is the "Agency" in a position to prevent them to undergo the same procedure Bland underwent ?

 

[AtlanticFriend]

I suspect the Implant Chip program met a Cymbeline chip and thought, "Hey, we have ths guy who does what's needed for the imperum... at any cost... how about we see if we can make him take over the enemy?"

Maybe the Implant Chips is a Cymbeline. The logic would be, since they are they are the only sentient "machines" (that I know of), they would be the only one able to preserve the complexity of maintaining a distinct personality and free volition.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

I think the wafer personality and the virus personality would fight it out - sometimes the virus would win and the wafer become corrupted with the virus personality, in other cases the wafer personality would win.

Actually that gets me thinking. To Hell with anagathics, the wafer grants one full immortality. The psyche is intact, and you can "inhabit" younger/better/stranger bodies as you see fit, at least for some time and then switch to another (reminds me of the Prez character in the Incal series) without any need for a medical process.

So, why hasn't an Emperor already made himself rule the Empire forever ?

:smirk: My dear AtlanticFriend your wish came true. :CoW: Mwuah ha ha . That nagging Empress Wave doomsday clock aside, Mwuah ha ha ha!

By one means or another, Lucan was able to create a Viral replica of his personality using techniques developed in ongoing research based on the Omicron project. He convinced the palace entity to allow him to upload this replica into some of his capital ships, to better control his subjects, and having done this turned on his ally and destroyed it. It was one of these early ‘Lucan ships’ that attacked Daibei in 1157.
Within a few years Lucan, realizing that his health was failing, found a way to make a direct personality upload – not a replica of Lucan but the real Lucan, loaded into a computer to rule the Imperium forever. Assembling an army of robotic guardians to protect him against the kind of assault that he had carried out against his ally, Lucan made the transfer. He became the palace computer, the central brain of the whole Imperium. But he did not stop there. Even as his dying human body was being carefully preserved ready to be mounted in a display case, Lucan began overwriting the Lucan simulations aboard his flagships. Now each of them really was Lucan; he could be over many worlds at once and be at the head of every fleet. - 1248 Sourcebook 1: Out of the Darkness p.61

 

[mike wightman]

Any and every TL13 culture that discovers wafer technology will have the option of electronic immortality, with it getting more capable at the advancing TLs. There is at least one major galactic civilization that goes in for wafer tech 'immortality' - the Essaray (assuming that the miss-spelling in MgT is the same culture, the Travellerwiki uses both spellings)

I like messing around with sinister secrets of the previous empires.

There is a story being told by MWM no less about a Vilani explorer/merchant ship that encounters a super advanced alien race that gifts the crew with a variety of technologies.

The merchants missjumped and crashed. They were rescued and cared for by the advanced race - they were advanced but had never discovered the secret of the jump drive. The aliens learned about jump drive from the wreckage, reverse engineered it and improved upon it.

They gifted the Vilani with a rebuilt ship with much improved technologies.

Upon their return to Vilani space they revealed some of their adventures to the authorities, but kept some of the secrets to themselves.

Within a few years the Vilani declared their Ziru Sirka and began a thousand year long war of conquest and consolidation...

is it a coincidence that a crew returns from an alien realm with secret technology and then within a few years the entire nature of the Vilani changes?

Spoiler

It is my conjecture but what if the aliens discovered wounded and dead Vilani. They cloned their bodies to repair the injured, the dead they downloaded the memories and personalities and then cloned them new bodies too.
This is one of the technologies that the aliens gifted the Vilani with, along with some rather nifty jump drive improvements.

Upon their return to Vilani space they also took an unexpected present from the aliens, stored alien personalities. These would sometimes take over the host in order to learn more about the Vilani.

The returned explores rose through the ranks of Vilani society, their families becoming very rich, powerful and influential.

Sometime later the consolidation wars kick off and by the end we have a new position of power - the shadow emperor:
"The Ziru Sirka initially had no emperor. Within 10 years, the chairman of the lgsiirdi (elected for life by the council) was the ishimkarun the shadow emperor - an unidentified leader who accepted or rejected the decisions of the council. The ishimkarun ruled through published proclamations, never appearing in public. Upon his death, the lgsiirdi elected a successor from its members."

What if the shadow emperor is actually the gestalt personality of the personality/memories of the Igsiirdi...

 

[Condottiere]

I would assume that cellular decay would destroy the infrastructure that memories and persona of a formerly alive sophont attaches itself to and maintains coherency.

 

[Grav_Moped]

If they discontinue the Agent wafers what happens to them? Archived? Destroyed?

If I were Bland i would have a copy or two stored somewhere...

as to stopping the Rebellion - what if the Rebellion is a necessary event?

That's the "what's the even-worse outcome" to be prevented. The Wave is going to totally screw over the Imperium. It may have been seen as necessary to break the Imperium up before the Wave arrived.

This would give each faction the ability to respond to it differently, and perhaps one of their approaches would work (and be isolated from failed efforts by other factions). Also, the damage that each faction could do individually when they went bonkers is much smaller than what a unified Imperium could do if its leaders lost their minds.