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More Power fuel tomfoolery from Beltstrike.

infojunky

SOC-14 1K
Peer of the Realm
Ok, been stating that Beltstrike might be a source for Power fuel. And there is some EP stuff as well.

Consumption (tons)
per Hour
per Day
per Week
Basic Power per 100ton ship volume
0​
0.007​
0.05​
Per EP used.
0.002​
0.05​
0.35​

Basic ship power is for every ship with a power plant no matter the plant rating but is size dependant.

Per EP covers the cost of moving, powering weapons, Electronics (re, Computer)

From here one can apply this to book2 by taking the per EP rate multiplying that by [(the ship's volume divided by 100) times the number of Gs used] to get the consumption. Though Book2 doesn't require power for weapons....
 
Hmmm as I recall there was a power/resource subgame involving the scanning prospector process, including detection, movement to new fields, and life support.
 
Ok, been stating that Beltstrike might be a source for Power fuel. And there is some EP stuff as well.

Consumption (tons)
per Hour
per Day
per Week
Basic Power per 100ton ship volume
0​
0.007​
0.05​
Per EP used.
0.002​
0.05​
0.35​
This is basically LBB5 fuel...

Scout, 100 Dt, PP-2, 2 EP:
2 EP, four weeks: 2 × 0.35 × 4 w = 2.8 Dt.


If you really just want to use LBB5 fuel rates for LBB2 ships, just say so...
 
Ok, been stating that Beltstrike might be a source for Power fuel. And there is some maneuver acceleration stuff as well.

Fuel Consumption
tons per Hour per 100 tons of craft
tons per Day per 100 tons of craft
tons per Week per 100 tons of craft
Basic Power
0​
0.007​
0.05​
Per G of acceleration
0.002​
0.05​
0.35​

Basic ship power is for every ship with a power plant no matter the plant rating but is size dependant.
FTFY.

Actually, the fuel consumption for a 100 ton Scout/Courier at a constant 2G acceleration would be:
  • (1 * 0.05) + (2 * 0.35) = 0.75 tons of fuel per week
  • 4 weeks = 3 tons of fuel consumed
Using this computation, the standard Scout/Courier with its 40 tons of fuel tanks would have 53 weeks 2 days 8 hours of continuous 2G acceleration maneuver capacity before exhausting its fuel ... which actually sounds much more like a useful fuel load for an explorer craft on a survey mission.

Jump in.
Wilderness refuel.
Spend most of a year maneuvering around within a star system gathering longitudinal observational survey data.
Wilderness refuel.
Jump out.
Get annual overhaul maintenance.
Wash, rinse, repeat.

Mind you, this is a FAR BETTER framework for fuel consumption than the 10Pn formula oversimplification provided in LBB2 for standard drives. My personal preference for reconciling the two would be to maintain the 10Pn minimum requirement for craft 100+ tons fitted with standard drives, while also stipulating that such a seemingly "excessive" fuel requirement yields a much extended endurance under continuous acceleration.

Basically, keep the required minimum and let the endurance maximum "float upwards" beyond the standard 4 weeks in craft below 1000 tons. This would mean that smaller starships are the "outliers" that tend to have/need higher endurance as a safety margin.

One possible rationale for maintaining the 10Pn minimum fuel requirement (as is) would be that having such a large fuel margin (in craft between 100-1000 tons) gives them a better chance for survival after a casualty event resulting in a loss of fuel (minimum 10 tons with self sealing tanks) ... whether that be caused by a stray meteoroid impact or battle damage. Having sufficient fuel reserves to be able to "take a hit" for -10 tons of fuel and still have fuel remaining would be an important safety requirement/factor for most starships ... enough to basically write the "construction rules" around such considerations.

This is basically LBB5 fuel...
Not ... exactly ... :unsure:
LBB5 would stipulate 2 tons of fuel per 4 weeks, not 3 tons of fuel per 4 weeks.
Still, that is a massive difference from needing 20 tons of fuel per 4 weeks (LBB2). 😲

Beltstrike, p5:
Fuel Is the other factor. Fuel use during a prospecting and mining expedition is significantly lower than in normal operations, since constant acceleration is rarely undertaken.
The fuel consumption table on page 11 shows the requirements of various types of maneuvering in terms of fuel use per hundred tons of ship. Basic power is used at at! times, including when maneuvering. Every maneuver (matching course with an asteroid, for instance) uses at least one hour's fuel at the 1G rate. The referee and/or players should keep track of a ship's fuel supplies; the ship should not be permitted to run out of fuel. It is possible to refuel by locating ice chunks, skimming gas giants, etc.
Players will soon learn about fuel conservation, as they find that each check of an asteroid burns needed fuel and shortens the expedition by that much more.

Fun thing about taking the above fuel consumption rates rather literally is that it stipulates that power plant fuel consumption during 1 week in jump is almost negligible (0.05 tons of fuel per 100 tons of craft for basic power during jump week) simply due to the fact that "there is no maneuver drive accelerating" going on while in jump. Note that this ultimately gives craft with model/1-2 computers (which consume zero EP) an advantage when needing to nickle and dime fuel consumption rates for increased endurance.

The thing about Beltstrike is that (on this score at least) the Name Of The Game™ is fundamentally one of "maneuver drive endurance" and conservation of resources for long duration expeditions ... albeit one in which acceleration is not a constant (unlike orbital transfer and transit maneuvers). This stands in stark contrast to most approaches to space/starship maneuvering in Traveller, where the maneuver drive is treated as something of an afterthought (kind of like how impulse drives tend to be something of an afterthought when you have warp drive to get around). For a lot of Players and Referees, maneuver drives in normal space "just aren't sexy" in quite the same way that jump drives moving starships across interstellar distances are (seeking out new worlds and new murder hobo opportunities).

The other thing you learn from Beltstrike pretty quickly is that you want to have at minimum a "double crew" aboard who can trade off on paired 6 hour shifts (so 12 hours on/12 hours off) as the minimum needed for continuous 24 hour prospecting operations with no down time for the craft. And if that sounds like an exhausting/grueling schedule to keep for weeks on end without a break ... well ... it is. :confused:
 
As a fun little exercise using the Beltstrike fuel consumption framework and modifying it for EP, I come up with the same result as @infojunky:
Consumption (tons)
per Hour
per Day
per Week
Basic Power per 100ton ship volume
0​
0.007​
0.05​
Per EP used
0.002​
0.05​
0.35​
If I take this and do something like build a 25 ton small craft that has a combat power demand of 5.5EP ... I wind up with a fuel consumption rate of 1.9375 tons of fuel per 7 days at 5.5EP continuous power production.

LBB5.80 fuel consumption for 5.5EP for 7 days is 1.375 tons per the LBB5.80 formula.
In other words, Beltstrike winds up being (in this specific 25 ton/5.5EP example case) 140.9% of the LBB5.80 fuel consumption rate ... while the 100 ton Scout/Courier winds up being 150% of the LBB5.80 fuel consumption rate.

Point being that Beltstrike uses a formula that is "not as favorable/simplistic" as what LBB5.80 might lead one to assume. I would argue that the "less fuel efficient" maneuvering framework put forward by Beltstrike ©1984 Game Designers' Workshop is the best option for a HEPlaR reaction mass maneuvering paradigm within the CT era.
 
Not ... exactly ... :unsure:
LBB5 would stipulate 2 tons of fuel per 4 weeks, not 3 tons of fuel per 4 weeks.
No, not exactly, but if you count on a "normal" use-case of four weeks, one of which in jump not accelerating, you get pretty close (2.3 Dt vs 2.0 Dt).


To use that to argue that LBB2 ships should generally use fuel almost like a LBB5 ship, despite the explicit rules in LBB2, is a bit contrived.
 
To use that to argue that LBB2 ships should generally use fuel almost like a LBB5 ship, despite the explicit rules in LBB2, is a bit contrived.
I agree ... while also disagreeing on the nuance in terms of details and implications.

I agree that the 10Pn tons of fuel requirement is "correct" for LBB2 standard drives in order to build in sufficient safety margin for craft between 100-1000 tons. This then fits the bill for starship design/construction purposes when answering the question of setting the minimum internal fuel requirement.

Where I disagree, when bringing the Beltstrike fuel consumption paradigm into picture, is that the 10Pn tons of fuel requirement yields an ipso facto fuel consumption rate over 4 weeks ... because Beltstrike yields a lower consumption rate. So what you wind up with is a situation where the 10Pn formula produces an "excessive safety margin" fuel requirement for smaller starships that extends their endurance beyond the stock and standard 4 weeks.


Taken in the spirit of the formula determines a floor, not a ceiling (because you can always add more fuel than the minimum requirement, for example) ... the way to square this circle is to accept the LBB2 sourced 10Pn formula as determining the MINIMUM TONNAGE REQUIRED by construction best practices and safety regulations ... but then go the extra step of using Beltstrike to compute the ACTUAL FUEL CONSUMPTION RATE which can then be used to compute the actual endurance available out of the available fuel mandated by the 10Pn formula.

What you wind up with then is a situation in which smaller ships are "forced" to accept an excessive power plant fuel margin, but for which they wind up with an endurance in excess of 4 weeks duration as a result. By contrast, ships over 1000 tons, things move in the opposite direction, resulting in less than 4 weeks of continuous maneuvering endurance.

A 2000 ton starship with a Power Plant-K standard drive (code: 1) would produce 20EP and be mandated by regulations to allocate only 10 tons (minimum) for powerplant fuel (because, 10Pn). Using the (updated) Beltstrike fuel consumption formula of ((Tons/100*0.05)+(EP*0.35))*(days/7) we can determine that basic power will consume ((Tons/100*0.05))*(days/7)=1 ton of fuel per week ... and that the 20EP needed to maneuver @ Agility=1 will consume ((EP*0.35))*(days/7)=7 tons of fuel per week ... so 8 tons of fuel (out of 10 tons available) per week if continuously maneuvering. However, if you only spend 2 days maneuvering (1 day out to plus 1 day down from jump points) every 2 weeks in regular commercial service, you're spending 2 tons of fuel on basic power for those 2 weeks plus another 2 tons on maneuvering (power/fuel) in those 2 weeks ... meaning you're actually expending only 4 tons of fuel every 2 weeks ... so 10 tons of fuel will actually last you 5 weeks (not just 4 weeks as advertised in the construction rules) when put into commercial merchant service at an operational tempo of jumping once every 2 weeks.



As soon as you accept the notion that the construction rules mandate the minimum fuel tonnage allocation for the naval architect spreadsheet ... while simultaneously accepting the idea that the fuel allocation can exceed an endurance rating of 4 weeks, rather than always being EXACTLY SPOT ON 4 weeks in every permutation no matter what ... various factors start settling into place in an acceptable fashion.

Yes, the 10Pn formula "punishes" smaller ships while also "rewarding" larger ships that use standard drives, in terms of consuming more tonnage for fuel in smaller ships. However, if you take the viewpoint that a side effect of such a "larger than absolutely necessary" fuel fraction is an operational endurance of longer than 4 weeks (more like slightly over 26 weeks after jumping in the case of the Scout/Courier using Beltstrike consumption rates) things start looking a lot less ... wasteful ... and instead skew more heavily in the direction of Safety Margins(!) and extended endurance for smaller ships. :unsure:

Needless to say, this is an interpretation that I would personally favor.

The minimum tonnage formulas (LBB2 and LBB5) are "correct" ... but the endurance those formulas produce is ... flexible.
The formulas ought to suffice for a 4 week MINIMUM endurance while operating on a commercial timetable of 1 jump week and 1 commerce week per 2 weeks, although (obviously) use cases may vary between commercial, military and paramilitary mission operations.
 
A few comments:

- Beltstrike "officially" brings Letter Drives closer to HG fuel burn rates. This suggests an underlying (and justifiable!) dissatisfaction with the '81 patch to the '77 fuel rules. ("1 trip of any length but expending it all" became "4 weeks" without changing the formula.)

- I still think the absurdly large fuel tanks of the Type S can then be explained as providing for an additional Jump-1 with careful fuel management, so that design can stay canonical.

- On the topic of canon designs, there are 3 that were natural results of the LBB2 rules: The Type S (it's what fits in 100Td, and gives better than minimal performance), The Type A (smallest ship with useable payload from smallest drives), and the XBoat (under '77 rules it's the smallest J-4, but m-drive fuel does not fit so it gets data banks and an extra stateroom instead.). The others have flexibility.

- The LBB2'81 XBoat (w/PP-B and one week of PP fuel) then works, but is still illegal. However, it's illegal under regulations enacted by the governmental entity that wants to build them, so getting an exemption should be trivial.
 
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The thing about Beltstrike is that (on this score at least) the Name Of The Game™ is fundamentally one of "maneuver drive endurance" and conservation of resources for long duration expeditions ... albeit one in which acceleration is not a constant (unlike orbital transfer and transit maneuvers). This stands in stark contrast to most approaches to space/starship maneuvering in Traveller, where the maneuver drive is treated as something of an afterthought
Doing it "right" takes math, and requires establishing a lot more detail about a starsystem than most folks want to bother with.
 
Hmmm as I recall there was a power/resource subgame involving the scanning prospector process, including detection, movement to new fields, and life support.
Well, Yes... Beltstrike make some interesting different design decisions. I for one kinda like the low level deflector shield that is part of those rules.
 
This is basically LBB5 fuel...

Scout, 100 Dt, PP-2, 2 EP:
2 EP, four weeks: 2 × 0.35 × 4 w = 2.8 Dt.


If you really just want to use LBB5 fuel rates for LBB2 ships, just say so...
Oh, I have.... :cool:

Just been talking about this particular rules fork of some time, and thought I would throw it up the flag pole.
 
A sidenote, I just realized that Beltstrike was a Keith Brother's expansion of Marc's earlier Asteroid Mining rules...

I am thinking I might have to do a compare and contrast of those as well.
 
This suggests an underlying (and justifiable!) dissatisfaction with the '81 patch to the '77 fuel rules. ("1 trip of any length but expending it all" became "4 weeks" without changing the formula.)
That's because the 10Pn formula was an oversimplified kludge that only works so long as you stay inside the boundaries of the (rigidly defined) sandbox as detailed. The moment you start deriving the underlying formulas that "built the charts" and then using those to "grow the sandbox" a lot of things start breaking, rapidly.

A lot of editorial decisions that went into how LBB2 (77 and 81) present and provide information simply do not yield "gracefully" to extension and interpolation beyond the bounds of how things ought to work.
 
That's because the 10Pn formula was an oversimplified kludge that only works so long as you stay inside the boundaries of the (rigidly defined) sandbox as detailed
.In '77 it wasn't a kludge, it was a plausibly consistent extension of the small craft fuel rules (or the other way around -- but I expect they were developed concurrently). The problem was that those rules themselves were implausible to start with because they were non-proporional to size.

Retaining the non-proprtionality in '81 was the kludge.

It isn't a sandbox scope issue, though that's hidden by the fact it works in the players' favor as ships get bigger (except in Beltstrike, where the non-proportional design requirements come back to bite the big LBB2 ships).
 
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