Primordial Cities

[robject]

I'm brainstorming about Primordials' "cities". Perhaps they're more aptly called "settlements", but Knightfall calls it a city, so.

First, I'll assume they follow similar patterns. This is because it's easier for me to think about them. But it's also because we know only a little about the Primordials themselves.

Of course, the layout and sizes of the buildings were determined by the illustrator and writers, so there is inherent bias. However, there's no reason we can't project that bias onto the Primordials themselves.

* each is in a pocket universe.

* each pocket universe is accessed via several portals on automatic timers (e.g. one year out of 150) with *deducible*, interrelated schedules.

* the portals may well have been able to be opened at-will, psionically.

* there are "several" (e.g. more than three, but perhaps no more than a dozen) portals originally.

* built on a "featureless plain, stretching to the horizon". This implies the outside of a constructed surface, at least planetary sized. I suggest a Jupiter-sized 'Capsule' Dyson sphere encompassing a tiny constructed star with a stellar tap for energy.

* each pocket universe is more or less exactly the size of the tiny Dyson sphere.

* the city is protected by a white globe generator.

* "The city" means the area inside the globe.

* the city is designed so that every building is easily accessible via walking.

* the city area is an irregular ellipse, typically 500m across, and often somewhat shorter than that.

* the city is divided into sections by wide walkways.

* the city's outer half-radius is open field, accented by tall spiral plants.

* the center section is encircled by a broad circuit-walkway.

* radial avenues lead from the inside circuit through the globe itself. This implies that the globe can be turned off when needed.

* two tall, thin towers guard the proper entrance into the city (1), which is apparently the only break in the globe.

* about a dozen buildings are clustered in the center.

* the observatory and astronomy lab are near the globe wall, outside the center cluster.

* the entertainment buildings are midway in the open-field area.

* two (or three) small, low, nondescript buildings are on the globe border, at equidistant points - probably control/maintenance buildings for the globe, and perhaps also for the energy source.

* buildings are organic-looking: asymmetric without angles, with blunted points.

* buildings appear "normal" in standard-gravity POV, or even a tad stretched, and Knightfall does not mention gravity being a problem.

* building #16 is the tallest, at 120m tall, and around 40m wide. building #15 and #19 are 100m tall and around 30m wide. Building 13 is about 70m tall and maybe 10m wide for most its length. The observatory is 80m tall and about 20m wide at midsection. The towers could be as tall as building #16, but we don't really have a good view of them. We do know that they are very thin - maybe 8m wide - and quite irregular in shape.

* almost all buildings are single-purpose: high-rise apartments, conservatories, libraries, entertainments, sciences. One building is "multi-purpose" but with no actual stated purpose.

KEY

1. Sentry Towers
2. Comfortable Walkways
3. Tall Plants (about 10m to 20m tall)
4. Special walkway (stone-hard, copper-colored)
5. Central walkway
6. Dead plants
7. Glassy "Reflection Pool"
8. Plaza
9. Resting area, with skybridge to 10.

10. Holding cages
11. Mixed labs

12. Desert Biome
13. Jungle Biome
14. Ice Amusement Biome

15. Resting area, with skybridge to 16.
16. Admin
17. Multipurpose tower (?)
18. Library tower
19. Hi-rise living

20. Amusement ("recreation center") park, lower
21. Amusement ("recreation center") park, upper
22. Resting area, to 21.

23. Astronomy lab
24. Observatory
25. Living quarters (for astronomers?)

 

[Orr]

Intriguing idea. Let's see what I can add.

• The two cities we know about are nearly a sector apart; one on Jonen/Massilia (0617) and one on Deys II/Zarushagar (0917).
• The Shining City from Knightfall can be accessed from "several" portals "each on a different world". Presumably the other city can be accessed in the same manner.
• Only one access portal is open at a time. A portal opens once roughly every 150 years and stays open for roughly one year.
• Antaina, the missing knight who is the mcguffin in Kinghtfall, identified two separate access portals to the Shining City.
• The portal on Deyis II is currently open (it's circa 1120 in the campaign). The other portal she identified closed in 1114.
• Antaina was somehow able to predict when the Deyis II portal would become active
• The city explored in Knightfall predates the Ancients by 250,000 years.

Whatever the Shining City is inside of, it's accessible from points on "several" worlds separated by parsecs. That ability sounds a great deal like Yaskodray's "retirement cottage"; a pocket universe containing three star systems and accessible from widely separated points in our universe.

Seeing as the access portals are so widely separated, the Shining City may not be "on" Jonen at all. An access portal is there, but the city could be anywhere.

 

[Procopius]

Your description of the city reminds me a little of XK-Masada from Charles Stross's Lovecraftian A Colder War.

 

[robject]

Regardless, their cities are indeed in pocket universes. I will conjecture that they are small pocket universes, though there is no data on that.

From here, I deduce that, though they may have been inferior to Yaskoydray, they were technologically on par with the Ancients. This does not pin us down with particular technologies, but it does tell us that their limitations were not TL based.

And that's why I figured the best way to power a city and its force field is to build the city on its energy source: a small Dyson sphere. This gets us a "building surface" as well.

 

[robject]

I've updated the Original Post with my conclusions so far.

 

[robject]

Updated with the overhead city plan from Knightfall and a key.

And now, a draft process:

Design a Primordials' City

(0) Determine the main purpose of the city. From the example city, research purposes include:

* astronomy
* a particular lifeform, type of lifeform, or world
* a particular biome

We can also deduce

* physics
* genetics
* "robotics"
* psionics

... etc ...


(1) The outer protective boundary is a white or silver globe forming an oblong spheroid or ellipsoid. Determine the widest part of this outer boundary (Flux or 2D-7):

-5 100 m
-4 150 m
-3 200 m
-2 300 m
-1 400 m
+0 500 m
+1 700 m
+2 1 km
+3 3 km
+4 10 km
+5 50 km

(2) Note a break at one point. This is the main entrance to the city. A globe canceller is usually on at this point. There are two thin and highly irregular towers on either side of this entrance, perhaps 100m tall but only 8m to 10m wide.

(3) Place at least three redundant globe control stations at roughly equidistant points along the periphery. These are small buildings (perhaps 20m tall and 60m long at the longest point).

(4) The inner city is usually a circle 200m wide (100m radius), or perhaps 40% of the total width of the city. It is surrounded by a wide, circular walk.

(5) Extend walks from the inner circular walk outward to each of the main entry and the three control stations.

(6) Determine the purpose or mission of the main work cluster of the city. That section gets a large building near the globe border, plus a smaller building for living quarters. Place a large rest and recreation center halfway between this major work cluster and the inner city. Two parallel walkways, typically 45 meters apart, run from the major work cluster, through the R&R center, to the circular walk around the inner city.

(7) Between the walkways is the Reflecting Pool.

(8) The two parallel walks end at the circular walk. Across that walk, place the High-Rise Living Tower, the Library Tower, and the Conference Center Tower.

(9) Place the Admin Tower at roughly the center of the city. Attach a rest and recreation tower adjacent.

(10) Divide the rest the inner city in two roughly equal sections. Assign the secondary purpose of the city in one of these sections, and give it two medium-sized buildings for this purpose, and add a smaller rest and recreation building adjacent. The last quarter of the inner city goes to various other work purposes. These are all relatively small buildings.


Congratulations, you have a Primordials' city.

 

[Orr]

Congratulations, you have a Primordials' city.

I like this. A referee can "automatically" whip up the basic description of a Primordial city and use the rest of their limited time working on the "weird" stuff. I really, really, really like this.

Speaking of weird, do you have any ideas why the Primordials are using a white globe inside a small Dyson sphere? I mean they already have a hidden sphere whose only access is via several hidden portals separated by parsecs and they still feel the need to put their cities inside a white globe?

Who or what was looking for them?

 

[robject]

The "High-Rise living Tower", at about 100m tall and 30m at its widest, can be approximated as a cylinder with height 100m and radius 25m.

Thus V = bh, where b = pi r^2.

So V = "3" x 25 x 25 x 100 = about 14,000 displacement tons.

Primordials are Big Sophonts. Bulky. So they need plenty of room. According to DGP, they "live" in their own shells. Obviously in Knightfall we don't see any shells. Maybe they SLEEP in their shells.

If so, then they only need as much room as their shell needs, rather than a full apartment. I.E. they may share common space, much like spacecraft has common space. Thus, the High Rise has sleeping nooks and common space.

ASSUME also that they're about 3 meters tall, and displace 0.156 cubic meters -- more than twice the volume of a human. This means a minimum space would be 2 tons, but a more likely minimum is 4 tons. Add a ton to account for corridor access, and include another 2 tons alloted to common space per Primordial, and we're at 7 tons each.

All that means that the 14,000 ton High-Rise building probably has on the order of 2,000 "apartment nooks".

 

[robject]

The Admin Tower, at 120m and 40m, can be approximated by:

V = pi x 35m x 35m x 120m = approx 32,000 tons.

ASSUMING 500 workspaces at 16 tons each, and 24,000 tons of large common spaces.

 

[maksimsmelchak]

The Admin Tower, at 120m and 40m, can be approximated by:

V = pi x 35m x 35m x 120m = approx 32,000 tons.

ASSUMING 500 workspaces at 16 tons each, and 24,000 tons of large common spaces.

*** Rob, have you read Niven's "Ring World"? ***

This thread is increasingly reminding me of Ring World's strange alien cities.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[maksimsmelchak]

The "High-Rise living Tower", at about 100m tall and 30m at its widest, can be approximated as a cylinder with height 100m and radius 25m.

Thus V = bh, where b = pi r^2.

So V = "3" x 25 x 25 x 100 = about 14,000 displacement tons.

Primordials are Big Sophonts. Bulky. So they need plenty of room. According to DGP, they "live" in their own shells. Obviously in Knightfall we don't see any shells. Maybe they SLEEP in their shells.

The other novel that I'm getting strong flashback to is "The Eternity Artifact" by L. E. Modesitt, Jr..

[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Eternity_Artifact ]

The precursor alien city and technology is pure "Ancients" or "Primordials" by Traveller terms. I think that precursor race was called the "Danaan," an allusion to Irish mythology.

It's great sci-fi and well worth the read. You might want to look it up for inspirational material.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Just a thought...

Maybe there aren't multiple cities, maybe there is just the one in Knightfall it is just accessed from various points.

We know they left for somewhere so maybe this isn't actually a true Pirmoridal City, it is Primordial Grand Central Station. A Transition Nexus if you like, a place to visit, upload favorite or useful memories into the MemTower (after using the MemPool to sort them), a night of two enjoying the last pleasures of The Retiring Age, then poof off The New Age.

Just a thought, but I think it works. Good thing the data's sketchy, let's a Sophontologist some room to run and Publish.

 

[Hyphen]

Enjoying this thread; liking your observations so far. Just a comment about this one:

* built on a "featureless plain, stretching to the horizon". This implies the outside of a constructed surface, at least planetary sized. I suggest a Jupiter-sized 'Capsule' Dyson sphere encompassing a tiny constructed star with a stellar tap for energy.

My take was no a Dyson Sphere, but more a Mobius-like extra-dimensional space - the sort which *appears* to stretch to the horizon, but when you start walking you either arrive back where you began, or you begin approaching the city from the other side. Klein bottle space?

Plenty of SF tropes used this one. ;-)

 

[robject]

Speaking of weird, do you have any ideas why the Primordials are using a white globe inside a small Dyson sphere? I mean they already have a hidden sphere whose only access is via several hidden portals separated by parsecs and they still feel the need to put their cities inside a white globe?

Who or what was looking for them?

That question had occurred to me. What is there to protect against? Then I plowed on ahead with "here's what I can deduce" and left that for someone else, or for later.

I guess it's later.

I assumed nothing in the PU except that Dyson world. We know the "plain" is "featureless"; presumably nothing lives there. Presumably.

There may be robots outside of the city who just patrol all the time. Perhaps the globe tells them not to bother things inside.

I don't know.

Perhaps in their heyday, those portals were typically open, and stray creatures would wander in. I don't know.

Perhaps there is an effect caused by being close to the edge of the Pocket Universe. Radiation. I don't know.

 

[robject]

*** Rob, have you read Niven's "Ring World"? ***

This thread is increasingly reminding me of Ring World's strange alien cities.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

I loved all of Niven's Known Space stories. Including the recent Fleet of Worlds series.

 

[robject]

GRAND CENTRAL STATION

We know they left for somewhere so maybe this isn't actually a true Pirmoridal City, it is Primordial Grand Central Station.

I don't buy it. HOWEVER, I think that is a GREAT IDEA for ANOTHER Primordials City plan. "Grand Central Station" seems to be a likely "purpose" for one of their cities. I'll start thinking about that.

So, how would Primordials build a Singularity City? E.G. a city whose purpose is for those 'ascending' or what-have-you?

Same infrastructure. Pocket universe, featureless horizon, white-or-silver globe, multiple portal access, main entry flanked by towers.

As Magnus said, the MemTower, the Reflecting Pool, the rec center and living tower. Admin. Convention/multipurpose center.

But, no labs. No major ones, anyway. The Outer Complex is the "Hall of Leave-Taking" or whatever.

 

[robject]

I just had a thought.

The Primordials had starships. Why couldn't they pop through gigantic portals into their Pocket Universes in their starships?

Thus the PU would have to be big enough for ships to orbit. So the "capsule Dyson sphere", the size of many earths, would have orbital space, perhaps out to 100 diameters (a convenient value).

That would also explain the white/silver globes: some measure of protection from disaster.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

*shakes head sadly*

GRAND CENTRAL STATION



I don't buy it. HOWEVER, I think that is a GREAT IDEA for ANOTHER Primordials City plan. "Grand Central Station" seems to be a likely "purpose" for one of their cities. I'll start thinking about that.

So, how would Primordials build a Singularity City? E.G. a city whose purpose is for those 'ascending' or what-have-you?

Same infrastructure. Pocket universe, featureless horizon, white-or-silver globe, multiple portal access, main entry flanked by towers.

As Magnus said, the MemTower, the Reflecting Pool, the rec center and living tower. Admin. Convention/multipurpose center.

But, no labs. No major ones, anyway. The Outer Complex is the "Hall of Leave-Taking" or whatever.

I just read the section on the City like a couple of days ago and that is my take on it, Professor. It is The Last City. Really, if they Ascended they just plain do not need anything as low tech as discreet structure of matter. They move in worlds of Information and Energy, matter is for us lesser species. :devil:

I just had a thought.

The Primordials had starships. Why couldn't they pop through gigantic portals into their Pocket Universes in their starships?

Thus the PU would have to be big enough for ships to orbit. So the "capsule Dyson sphere", the size of many earths, would have orbital space, perhaps out to 100 diameters (a convenient value).

That would also explain the white/silver globes: some measure of protection from disaster.

Because where they are going they don't need starships, well not once the Shimmering City was constructed. Also, if they are using portals and teleport/stutterport starship might just be short use pods, then reverted back to utility fog and added to the matter bulk the City uses as needed.

See this is why when I straight disappear while "exploring a rumored Pre-Ancient site" your lowly meat brain will be trying to figure out where I went.

 

[Orr]

WOW... great stuff from everyone! With Robject's "roll up a city" method, plus he and Magnus' various ideas, any referee can quickly put together an anomaly which will leave their players scratching their heads!

I especially like Robject's continued use of "I don't know." There should be more of that in RPG sessions. There should be mysteries that gnaw at the players, mysteries that have no final answers even in the "GMs - Only" section.

My paltry comments:

• While Mr. Fugate states there are two Primordial cities, only one made it into print. Ignore or take that as you may.
• I love the idea of cities being dedicated to certain purposes, just not easily discernible purposes. The Knightfall city is clearly multipurpose. Ignore or take that as you may.
• The 3D "videos" in Knightfall show those Primordials packing up and leaving, not "ascending", and Mr. Fugate plainly had plans for them in the future. Again, ignore or take that as you may.
• Hyphen's ideas about a Mobius strip or Klein bottle are inspired.
• I've got no idea why they're using a white globe either.

Following an aside from earlier in the thread, I re-read the linked adventures in the MGT Referee's Screen for the first time in a long time. I'd honestly completely forgotten them and, after reading them again, understood why I'd completely forgotten them.

The parrot dragons are nice enough; they're a sort of flying tape recorder with magpie tendencies that act as a comedic nuisance. The old previously-undiscovered-minor-race trope is employed YET AGAIN. While that race is only used as a background threat of sorts, the fact that they're six-legged, furry, recently iron-working, tunneling, crocodiles means they're sort of interesting. The other villains of the piece are a long range recon group loyal to Lucan who act in a completely implausible manner.

The adventures could be punched up easily enough, but as they stand they're definitely a "meh..."

 

[whulorigan]

Speaking of weird, do you have any ideas why the Primordials are using a white globe inside a small Dyson sphere? I mean they already have a hidden sphere whose only access is via several hidden portals separated by parsecs and they still feel the need to put their cities inside a white globe?

White Globes would not necessarliy have to be a defensive measure. They selectively absorb and retransmit energy. The White Globes could be part of a self-regenerating power-source, or be used to selectively absorb or tune out paticular wavelengths of energy.

Perhaps it had a simple scientific or city-engineering function.