• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.

T4 Only: Question regarding fighter craft sensor ratings in T4.

ManOfGrey

SOC-12
Knight
After 27 years, I am finally having a look at how the light, medium, and heavy fighters, and the missile bomber, work in the T4 starship design and combat rules.

All four, (listed in T4 Starships pgs. 62-69,) have a sensor rating of 5A 2P 2J. Does anyone know where these numbers come from? I can't find them in the QSDS system, or the SSDS system, or in any of the errata. There are plenty of other options, at different tech levels, and different levels of quality, (basic, civilian, military, etc..) But as far as I can tell, none have this exact sensor rating for fighter craft. Am I missing the forest for the trees?

I have looked in Fire, Fusion, & Steel. It uses a somewhat different system for establishing a sensor lock. Having said that, I did not find these exact values, regardless.

Thanks!
 

Attachments

  • T4 Fighter Sensor Question.jpg
    T4 Fighter Sensor Question.jpg
    745 KB · Views: 4
They are the numbers that appear in the core rule book for the light fighter. The SSDS and QSDS are for building ships 100t and larger. I think there may be a missing smallcraft design sequence somewhere out there.
 
You could use FF&S to build a SCDS, but the issue remains that the smallcraft in the T4 sources have a sensor package that appears to be the military package/2 (10A 4P 4J reduced to 5A 2P 2J) but is not mentioned as such since there is no dedicated smallcraft design sequence that I can find. I know that BITS reworked the QSDS, just wondering out loud if there exists a secret SCDS somewhere.

I have a copy of a T5 smallcraft design sequence - I wonder if it is hidden in there?
 
... but the issue remains that the smallcraft in the T4 sources have a sensor package that appears to be the military package/2 (10A 4P 4J reduced to 5A 2P 2J)...

Now that is very insightful. Thank you! I hadn't noticed before, but you are right, the values are, in fact, half the values for the military package. That may get me what I was needing. If those values are half, then I could just half the other values... mass, volume, price, and (especially) power. Thank you again! That may get me where I wanted to go. :)
 
They are the numbers that appear in the core rule book for the light fighter. The SSDS and QSDS are for building ships 100t and larger. I think there may be a missing smallcraft design sequence somewhere out there.

I see your point. But, for what it's worth, I have tried to use the "T4 SSDS Rules Revised" that is included on the CD ROM from FFE to experiment with building small craft. I understand it's certainly possible that I'm the only one who's looked at these rules in the last decade or so. But since you suggested they are only used for building ships 100 Tons or larger, I thought I would share the results of what I have found.

Frankly, the answers caught me somewhat off-guard.

First, I have attached below the statistics of the 50 Ton Modular Cutter as published in T4 Starships. As you can see, it is clearly shown to be a TL-9 spacecraft. (Which, I think, is the same as LBB Book 2 Starships.) Frankly, to give the authors credit, the SSDS rules in T4 really goes into quite a bit of detail about the differences in Tech Level.

Obviously I have also attached below some of the relevant sections of the SSDS rules. And they show that a 50 Ton, cylindrical hull is available at TL-9. But what isn't available is the Grav Thruster Plates. These are only available at Tech Levels 11+. However, Basic ContraGravity Drives are available at LT-9. However, the SSDS rules state:

"ContraGravity drives are not real maneuver drives, and aren’t useful outside of a gravity well. Their primary use is gravity vehicles. They are included here so that ships below tech level 11 (thruster plates) can hover and maneuver in an atmosphere. By 10 diameters out from a planet, the ContraGravity drive is virtually worthless, only producing 1% of the thrust it would on the surface. Note that the accelerations listed below can only be achieved in a 1G gravity well. Ships that use ContraGravity still need another form of maneuver drive to get out to jump distance. Normally, only enough CG is installed to counter the mass of the ship (use 10x displacement tons as a rule of thumb)."

So, granted, while using ContraGravity drives won''t fly you to Jupiter, they can get you to orbit.

Now here's where we run into a bit of a contradiction. The statistics of the 50 Ton Modular Cutter show that it has a 4G acceleration, but the paragraph above says to use 10x the displacement tons as a rule of thumb, which is normally a 1G acceleration. However, as an experiment, I gave the Modular Cutter design a 4G acceleration, like its statistics suggest. (Which would be 4G x 10 x 50 Tons = 2000 tonnes of thrust.) And as you can see on the chart, this is possible, taking 66.7 cubic meters, or 4.74 Tons, of volume, and requiring 40MW of power.

Basic Life Support is easily accounted for in a 50 Ton hull, but Artificial Gravity / Internal Compensators at TL-9 are not. Instead they must use G-Tanks, which (I assume) are tanks filled with a fluid to alleviate someone from feeling the force of acceleration by keeping them submerged and neutrally buoyant.

This is certainly something I did not see coming. In fact, in the charts below, I have highlighted in pink that Artificial Gravity is only available at TL-10 and above.

The other thing that surprised me is while Fusion Plants are available at TL-9, they're HUGE! You only need 50MW or so to make the 50 Ton Modular Cutter fly. But the smallest Fusion Plants that are available at TL-9 are 2500MW, are are 1250 cubic meters, or 89.2 Tons in volume. That's larger than the 50 Ton hull. It will never fit.

But there are Fission plants available, and at 50MW takes up 50.0 cubic meters, or 3.57 Tons, which can be made to work.

The whole point to this discussion, is that despite the omission we discussed earlier, you can use the SSDS rules to design small craft. But the results are not necessarily what you would expect. Like most people who play Traveller, I did not imagine the 50 Ton Modular Cutter in T4 would be powered by Plutonium, and wold require characters to climb into a fish tank in order to get to orbit.

It seems the designers of the game were caught off-guard by their own rules. Which, frankly, is neither a high crime nor misdemeanor. But it is something that makes you say "hmmm..."
 

Attachments

  • Modular Cutter example 2.jpg
    Modular Cutter example 2.jpg
    1.3 MB · Views: 4
Last edited:
Now here's where we run into a bit of a contradiction. The statistics of the 50 Ton Modular Cutter show that it has a 4G acceleration, but the paragraph above says to use 10x the displacement tons as a rule of thumb, which is normally a 1G acceleration. However, as an experiment, I gave the Modular Cutter design a 4G acceleration, like its statistics suggest. (Which would be 4G x 10 x 50 Tons = 2000 tonnes of thrust.) And as you can see on the chart, this is possible, taking 66.7 cubic meters, or 4.74 Tons, of volume, and requiring 40MW of power.
It's worse than that: TL-9 Contragrav has a thrust factor of 8% (FFS, p105).

T4 FFS, p65:
Contragravity
At TL9, the burgeoning science of gravitics allows vehicle designers to manipulate the local gravity field and create a lifting force. Most of the force is directed parallel to the gravity field (straight up and down), but a fraction can be diverted horizontally to provide thrust as well as lift. The thrust factor column in Table 164: Contragravity Drives indicates the portion of the drive's lift that can be used for propulsion. If you need greater thrust, some other form of auxiliary propulsion needs to be added to the vehicle. Also note that in level flight, the lift must equal the weight, and hence the maximum thrust available, in kN, will be equal to 10 x Thrust Factor x Loaded Mass.
If you want to accelerate in any other direction than straight "up" or "down", you are severely limited. You can use CG to counteract local gravity, but you generally need another form of propulsion.

With 20 000 kN of thrust (≈2000 tonnes), only 1 600 kN (160 tonnes) is available for manoeuvre, and that is only if full acceleration "upwards" is applied.

CG works great for a slow air/rafts, but spacecraft needs a separate propulsion system. At TL-9 we are limited to rockets...


HEPlaR and Fusion+ is available at TL-10, Thruster Plates (=M-drive) at TL-11. Presumably they just cheated with TLs when they designed low tech ships...

At around TL-12 everything falls into place, and we can design recognisable spacecraft.
 
All four, (listed in T4 Starships pgs. 62-69,) have a sensor rating of 5A 2P 2J. Does anyone know where these numbers come from? I can't find them in the QSDS system, or the SSDS system, or in any of the errata.
At a guess, the range of Active, Passive, and Jammers in 30000 km units.

5A is e.g. a 150 000 km radar or A-EMS.
2P is e.g. a 60 000 km thermal or P-EMS.
2J is e.g. a 60 000 km jammer.


So this:
Skärmavbild 2023-02-25 kl. 22.08.png
would be a 1A 2P 0J, aka blind-and-deaf...

And look (Starships, p101):
Skärmavbild 2023-02-25 kl. 23.18.png
1A 2P it is.


The clue is:
FFS, p74:
Converting FF&S1/QSDS/SSDS Sensors
To convert sensors ranges from FF&S1 (given in kilometers or hexes) or from QSDS/SSDS (usually given in hexes) use Table 204.
Of course there is no Table 204, but a TNE hex is 30 000 km, as confirmed by the actual Table 204:
Skärmavbild 2023-02-25 kl. 22.22.png
 
Last edited:
5A 2P seems to be the smallest sensors actually included in T4 (FFS, p110), i.e. the 60 000 km PEMS [Table 198] and 160 000 km Active Sensor (radar or AEMS) [Table 201]:
Skärmavbild 2023-02-25 kl. 22.55.png

Note that there is no passive sensor defined for TL<10, so TL-9 craft should have 0P.
 
Back
Top