The Gateway: Lords of Thunder Wars, or the Vegetarian Conquests

[Hairy Jim DeGriz]

Has anyone written about the Gateway Quadrant after the Solomani War 1002-1105? I’m retconning the sector for a 1004 (GA -101 years) campaign, because I really enjoy the Quicklink material. Looking at the travellermap.com, the expansionist-genocidal-vegetarian K’Kree conquered more than two subsectors (most of Hammond and parts of Kukaxtooa, Renkard, Linder) between 990 and 1105. Surely this caught the attention of the Imperium (and Solomani and Hivers). I think a lot of former Solomani War combatants might have found tickets at the edge of the Gateway Sector, fighting the unrelenting onslaught of the K’Kree. To the extent that former enemies might have fought side by side against the Centaur invasions for the sake of Humaniti. I’m going to throw some ideas out , and any input is welcome.

 

[tjoneslo]

The last time I looked through the area I found most of the worlds out there were low-population outposts or low-tech havens of some exile group or another. Given the advanced and organized nature of the Lords of Thunder, conquering these worlds would not be a challenge.

On the other hand, K'kree avoid worlds where they can't be outside enjoying an open sky.

So the pattern for the less than truly habitable worlds would be the K'kree show up, declare they are now in charge. They will insist the local population obey their new Steppelord. Then they largely leave. The populations of these wolds are not allowed to travel, and all their trade comes through the K'kree merchants. And they're all vegetarians of course. But otherwise they are left alone.

I might pick a few worlds and mark them as Die-back worlds. With the obvious markings of the K'kree dealing with a rebellion. Mark them a Red Zone.

On the worlds where the K'kree can live outside, these worlds would be more aggressively conquered. Terraforming efforts may be ongoing to make it a "perfect" world. The K'kree presence there will be overbearing and constant. Any of the population left there will be slaves, and lowest class ones at that.

I do believe the governments of the area would form a (mostly) united front, and aggressively propagandize the threat of the Lords of Thunder to recruit to the cause of resistance.

The militaries and mercenaries of the area would realize they are fighting a rear-guard action against a superior foe. And trying to stage a fifth-column rebellion within the conquered space is a suicide mission as the K'kree are absolutely willing to kill huge number of innocents to maintain their sense of peace.

I guess the question is has the Lords reached a stabilization point with their empire building and need to spend time to consolidate their gains? Or are the Lords of Thunder simply moving (slowly) across space, conquering worlds and then abandoning them as they go. Leaving the hollow space behind them which the Two Thousand Worlds will fill at some point.

 

[JMiskimen]

Just playing around with ideas; consider a 'What If' scenario where a stable wormhole existed between Gateway (Gateway 1220) and Farreach (Spinward Marches 1402.) Now consider the Lords of Thunder establishing a holdfast between the Consulate and Regina ...

Just playing with ideas ...

 

[Blue Ghost]

I'll second the genocidal tendencies of the K'Kree. In both GDW and GURPS writeups they're described as xenophobic in the extreme, and I think wiped out the reptillian sophonts on a sister world ... I think it was in their own system, but I can't be certain, and am too lazy to look it up. So yeah, if I were a merc I probably wouldn't even call this a "bad war" but more like "no war" or "lambs to the slaughter"--to coin a phrase. Heck, I might even whip out some glue-factory jokes and then go grab a couple of double Whoppers with cheese before I visit the K'Kree consulate in downtown Capitol.

 

[tjoneslo]

The K'kree have not, in the history of the 3rd Imperium, had to face a foe of equal standing. Their two conflicts (the Gnaak on their home world 4000+ years ago, and the war with the Hive Federation 3000 years ago) have left them unprepared to deal with an opponent that can fight back on equal terms. The Lords of Thunder are trying to revive their old conquering ways. But will or should soon run into the limitations of the K'kree starship building and war efforts.

So yes, you are now dealing with the K'kree fanatics who are now having to rule the territory they have conquered. And finding that's not easy. And the systems on the border, next on the list of conquerer, willing to try anything to avoid being the next to fall.

To keep this firmly in the realm of Traveller, I recommend the book The Glorious Empire, from Mongoose Publishing. It covers an Aslan splinter state in the Trojan Reaches sector. The history section should give you ideas for the evolution of the politics of this part of space.

 

[Blue Ghost]

One of my massively huge beefs with GDW and the LBBs was that there were no LBB adventures nor double adventures published for any of the alien "realms" ("Alien Realms" not withstanding). I never saw a single LBB A / DA that took place in Aslan, Vargr, Darrien, Vegan, Hiver, nor K'Kree space, not any of the other major or minor races. So when MT rolled around we did some homebrew stuff, and then put down the system.

It would have been cool to see some LBBs for K'Kree space. I also started a thread about facing K'Kree "heavy infantry" (cavalry?) where a "herd" of them dressed in their K'Kree equivalent of combat armor, armed with a mix of polearms and their ACRs or energy weapons, essentially charged your position. How would you fare? Do you need grav tanks and APCs? Would they stand a chance? Interesting stuff.

 

[Hairy Jim DeGriz]

I also started a thread about facing K'Kree "heavy infantry" (cavalry?) where a "herd" of them dressed in their K'Kree equivalent of combat armor, armed with a mix of polearms and their ACRs or energy weapons, essentially charged your position. How would you fare? Do you need grav tanks and APCs? Would they stand a chance? Interesting stuff.

Can you post the link? I would like to peruse that. I'm thinking Mastiffs, or a similar trained carnivore, might have a place in this campaign.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Wow, 16 years ago. Here you go;

K'Kree Heavy Infantry

K'Kree Heavy Infantry; A centaur sporting a .50 Cal HMG, with a double layer of armor(2xCA or BD). Whaddaya think? p.s. the idea came to me when thinking about the K'Kree thread in the Lone Star topic.

www.travellerrpg.com

 

[Grav_Moped]

Wow, 16 years ago. Here you go;

K'Kree Heavy Infantry

K'Kree Heavy Infantry; A centaur sporting a .50 Cal HMG, with a double layer of armor(2xCA or BD). Whaddaya think? p.s. the idea came to me when thinking about the K'Kree thread in the Lone Star topic.

www.travellerrpg.com

They wouldn't be carrying heavy weapons as though they were humans with smaller weapons; the weapons would be on recoil-absorbing support arms connected to a load-bearing harness over their hind-body (think "pack saddle"). This "pack saddle" would also hold auto-loading ammunition (ammo feed belts, or power supplies for energy weapons).

 

[Blue Ghost]

Yeah, I think that was the time I was finishing my degree ... I can't remember whether Hunter was still alive at that time or not, but it was around then that I was considering authoring for T20, and writing some K'Kree oriented adventures came up. I never followed through, and I'm not into it now, but that thread was mor or less a brainstorming session about K'Kree armaments in general.

I always liked the big open aired grav platform, and often wondered what it would be like if a troop of K'Kree fought from one of those things ... I don't remember much about their personal weapons. So, enjoy

 

[Hairy Jim DeGriz]

@tjoneslo The last time I looked through the area I found most of the worlds out there were low-population outposts or low-tech havens of some exile group or another. Given the advanced and organized nature of the Lords of Thunder, conquering these worlds would not be a challenge.

Are there any published sources for UWP data in the Luretiir!girr Sector? (Canon or otherwise) I’m guessing no, from the Wiki. I might be going retro and rolling some of my own.

For sources I have available:
Gateway to Destiny (T20): circa IY 990 (Solomani War); QLI 2004,
Alien Races 2 (GURPS): circa IY 1120 (sans Rebellion); SJG 1999
The Megatraveller Journal #4: circa IY 1120 (post Rebellion); DGP 1993

Is there any other material I should definitely have? I know eventually I’m going to buy more of the FFE CD ROMS, which are a fantastic bargain. It's great to finally have the material, after I had to pass over the paper editions for years, due to budgetary considerations

 

[JMiskimen]

Obviously, Travellermap would be of assistance for OTUish world/border placements -

The Traveller Map

An interactive map of the universe of the Traveller role playing game, incorporating official data and fan submissions. The site also provides services for generating custom maps and APIs for incorporating maps into other sites.

travellermap.com

- unless you really want to roll everything up randomly. I mean, it does look like some generation will be necessary, but it's a start and sounds fun too.

 

[tjoneslo]

Are there any published sources for UWP data in the Luretiir!girr Sector? (Canon or otherwise) I’m guessing no, from the Wiki. I might be going retro and rolling some of my own.

@GypsyComet has been working on the area. There are notes available for the asking. There may well be an opportunity for coordination.

Other than some fan materials, I know of no other sources for the area. If you are serious about working, I recommend joining the T5 Second Survey mailing list to get a hold of everyone who might be interested.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Is there any other material I should definitely have? I know eventually I’m going to buy more of the FFE CD ROMS,

How fervent a fan are you?

Not in the time period you are looking for. However, the 1248 CD ROM details the fate of K'kree after Virus is released. No stats or rules, lots of narrative and a lovely drawing of a K'kree Trooper standing proudly over the corpse of a fallen human. A one sentence summary:

Allied with Virus, The GODS of Thunder become The Big Bad Existential Threat that threatens all life in Charted Space.

Would you like to know more?

 

[GypsyComet]

There isn't much for Lure in the wiki beause I prefer to work from the ground up. That said, if you look at the pages for the Renkard Union, Ka'ra Mandate, and the Lank'gha Collective you'll see some historical notes. The time-appropriate border of the Lords of Thunder is also present on the Rim War era map on Traveller Map.

The UWPs remain a work in progress, and you can see that the TTW spaces in the sector are available in 1105. The dotmap is mine as well, as are all polity names.

As for the short term future, if you dig into late Rebellion TAS News items, you can find the saga of the "K'kree Merchant Fleet" (ahem) that drove into Ley and was summarily destroyed. Not identified as such at the time, it still reeks of a Lords of Thunder operation, though it *might* have been legitimate.

The issue of MegaTraveller Journal that introduces the Lords of Thunder depicts them as engaged in aggressive diplomacy across Gateway in the mid-Rebellion period.

One issue with the Gateway material in general is that it was written for two different eras (Rim War and Rebellion) but also... not. The T20 version pulls keynotes from MTJ#4 but ignores the centuries of separation. The history of Gateway has huge gaps, and some polities just sprang into existence at indeterminate times.

An additional issue with K'kree development prior to my involvement was that a few areas were done using the generic UWP process, ignoring the CT K'kree book's specific rules. Those lead to a very different picture of K'kree space, one that I'm still fighting in other fora, as Mongoose decided that K'kree are really TL12 based on nothing that I can find that makes sense. Everyone involved at Mongoose should know that the GURPS TL scale is different (GTL12 = TTL15), but that's the only mistake I can find that makes any sense at all for their assertions of K'kree TL. Much like the High Population revelations of MegaTraveller, the K'kree *worlds* and K'kree *populace* are not the same thing. Where the K'kree are "barely there" and cannot maintain their tech base, they trend lower, but the vast majority of K'kree congregate on comfortable worlds and drive the TL to its maximum of 15. Or rather, they maintain the K'kree achievement of TL15. The K'kree as a species have attained that level; it is up to each world's Steppelords to maintain it. A *very* different approach to TL than the Imperium.

 

[Hairy Jim DeGriz]

Not in the time period you are looking for. However, the 1248 CD ROM details the fate of K'kree after Virus is released. No stats or rules, lots of narrative and a lovely drawing of a K'kree Trooper standing proudly over the corpse of a fallen human. A one sentence summary:

Allied with Virus, The GODS of Thunder become The Big Bad Existential Threat that threatens all life in Charted Space.

Would you like to know more?

I think I have that CD - The New Era? Which book should I be looking in? Although I am more inclined to go the SJG parallel Loren-verse future, but right now I'm looking at the gap between 990 and 1105, so 1116 is a long way off.

 

[Hairy Jim DeGriz]

There isn't much for Lure in the wiki beause I prefer to work from the ground up. That said, if you look at the pages for the Renkard Union, Ka'ra Mandate, and the Lank'gha Collective you'll see some historical notes. The time-appropriate border of the Lords of Thunder is also present on the Rim War era map on Traveller Map.

The UWPs remain a work in progress, and you can see that the TTW spaces in the sector are available in 1105. The dotmap is mine as well, as are all polity names.

As for the short term future, if you dig into late Rebellion TAS News items, you can find the saga of the "K'kree Merchant Fleet" (ahem) that drove into Ley and was summarily destroyed. Not identified as such at the time, it still reeks of a Lords of Thunder operation, though it *might* have been legitimate.

The issue of MegaTraveller Journal that introduces the Lords of Thunder depicts them as engaged in aggressive diplomacy across Gateway in the mid-Rebellion period.

One issue with the Gateway material in general is that it was written for two different eras (Rim War and Rebellion) but also... not. The T20 version pulls keynotes from MTJ#4 but ignores the centuries of separation. The history of Gateway has huge gaps, and some polities just sprang into existence at indeterminate times.

An additional issue with K'kree development prior to my involvement was that a few areas were done using the generic UWP process, ignoring the CT K'kree book's specific rules. Those lead to a very different picture of K'kree space, one that I'm still fighting in other fora, as Mongoose decided that K'kree are really TL12 based on nothing that I can find that makes sense. Everyone involved at Mongoose should know that the GURPS TL scale is different (GTL12 = TTL15), but that's the only mistake I can find that makes any sense at all for their assertions of K'kree TL. Much like the High Population revelations of MegaTraveller, the K'kree *worlds* and K'kree *populace* are not the same thing. Where the K'kree are "barely there" and cannot maintain their tech base, they trend lower, but the vast majority of K'kree congregate on comfortable worlds and drive the TL to its maximum of 15. Or rather, they maintain the K'kree achievement of TL15. The K'kree as a species have attained that level; it is up to each world's Steppelords to maintain it. A *very* different approach to TL than the Imperium.

Thanks for all of the insight. Regarding some of the sources you cite:

if you dig into late Rebellion TAS News items, you can find the saga of the "K'kree Merchant Fleet"

Is that from various DGP products that aren't readily available? I'm fortunate to have a physical copy of MgT Journal #4, and a few of their other publications. I enjoyed their work. But it's not searchable. .PDF is my hero.

ignoring the CT K'kree book's specific rules.

I feel another CR transfer to FFE about to happen for the Classic Canon CD. I've only put it off because I have about 60% of in digital, and 35% in paper, but only 1 AM. Repeat to myself, ,PDF is my hero.

Much like the High Population revelations of MegaTraveller, the K'kree *worlds* and K'kree *populace* are not the same thing.

What revelation did I miss?

It doesn't seem too difficult to build a general continuity from 990 QLI to 1105 and beyond since QLI did incorporate the some of the bones that were there.

 

[Hairy Jim DeGriz]

Obviously, Travellermap would be of assistance for OTUish world/border placements -

The Traveller Map

An interactive map of the universe of the Traveller role playing game, incorporating official data and fan submissions. The site also provides services for generating custom maps and APIs for incorporating maps into other sites.

travellermap.com

- unless you really want to roll everything up randomly. I mean, it does look like some generation will be necessary, but it's a start and sounds fun too.

I actually downloaded all of the data from the Traveler Map, for both 1105 and 990 so I could create really big spreadsheets to play with. Because that's the kind of nerd I am. And the map itself is magnificent. But there's no data for Lure in either era.

 

[GypsyComet]

I actually downloaded all of the data from the Traveler Map, for both 1105 and 990 so I could create really big spreadsheets to play with. Because that's the kind of nerd I am. And the map itself is magnificent. But there's no data for Lure in either era.

Subsectors L and P (TTW space and a little of the Ka'ra Mandate) do have data for 1105, and both are likely pretty similar for 990, since K'kree space is, while not static, pretty slow changing.

The Revelation (which may or may not be the right term for it) is that more than 90% of Imperial population is on a very short list of worlds, the High Pops. Much of the Rebellion is shaped by those worlds as objectives, bases, and targets. In the Imperium, those worlds otherwise run quite a spectrum of types and TL, since they fall under the standard world building process.

K'kree space is different, per CT. The K'kree themselves strongly prefer a particular subclass of worlds, which manifests as a significant bias of population toward those worlds in the K'kree world building process. The next random step in that process produces TL, which is strongly biased by population. The result of the double bias is that a significant majority of K'kree live on nice worlds (to them) with high TL.

The TAS News item that made it into Survival Margin is from 177-1129, on page 62. The rest may be DGP entries, but I'd need to dig.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

I think I have that CD - The New Era? Which book should I be looking in? Although I am more inclined to go the SJG parallel Loren-verse future, but right now I'm looking at the gap between 990 and 1105, so 1116 is a long way off.

The second TNE CD-ROM. The first covers the TNE Era by GDW years 1202-1210 . The second CD-ROM has books with IY 1248 from ComStar/Avenger Enterprises. The overall history of Charted Space, about 80 pages of history IY 1129-1248 is in Traveller 1248 Book1: Out of Darkness. The other three main books provides greater detalls on the Spinward States (former Regency), the new 4th Imperium (yes, no joking) in Gushemege Sector, and the Freedom League.(former Reformation Coalition) and parts Rimward.

Even though I may be this era's biggest cheerleader, in fairness a warning: Due to changes in the narrative found in Marc Miller's novel Agent of the Imperium and the Mongoose 1st Edition Zhodani book, the characteristics of the Empress Wave were changed. It was made faster and deadlier, to the point that canonicity of 1248 and even TNE itself is questioned. Some wish to chuck it all, some like me are willing to keep the things that could still happen in the relative past like the 1150s when the Gods of Thunder make nice with Virus. Since this is the IMTU forum, go for it! Or not. YMMV.

Personally, I love it as the K'kree come into their own to become My Little Ponies of Death.
FOR THE HERD!