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Traveller Theme 1: Proto-Traveller

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This discussion is to reasonably clearly spell out the rule/setting combination known as Proto-Traveller. I'll keep this OP updated as the model gets refined.

Proto-Traveller is a small ship, low traffic Traveller Universe, typically focusing on civilian or quasi-civilian (ex-military) play rather than strictly military science-fiction. It tends to prefer the simpler rules over the more complex ones: basic chargen over advanced chargen; weapons from Book 1 over the ironmongery of Book 4; and so on.

It is therefore closely aligned with Traveller key concepts, embodied in this post: What is Traveller?


I. RULESETS

Proto-Traveller is a subset of the Traveller rules, typically including LBBs 1-4, Supplements 1-4, Adventures 1-4 and all of the Double Adventures. Adventures 10 and 12 are sometimes included, as are other booklets.

What little setting information is contained in Proto-Traveller is inconsequential enough to be safely ignored or replaced without harm. This pretty much includes any OTU proper noun except perhaps Psionics Institutes and TAS.

Alternately, Proto-Traveller (almost completely sans setting) is completely described by the Traveller5 Core Rules.

Exclusion List

Here is material which is typically excluded from basic Proto-Traveller, only to be brought in as desired by the referee:
  • Advanced Character Generation
  • OTU Starcharts and background material
  • High Guard 2 (HG2 or just HG) and related material
  • Megacorporations
  • Merchant Prince
  • Striker

JTAS and Challenge

A number of articles in JTAS and Challenge are useful to Proto-Traveller. JTAS Nos. 1-6 generally is completely acceptable. Nos. 7 and up, and all Challenge issues, have good material, subject to the exclusion list above.



II. STARSHIPS

Ships are designed using "Book 2 Plus" (click here for an example of a B2+ design system): a system which included add-ons from a prototype of High Guard 1 when needed (examples: small craft drives and fuel use, armor, hull configurations, and particle accelerator barbettes). The size limitations of Book 2 are honored -- but note that Book 2's drive potential table implicitly permits slow and ponderous ships up to 12,000 tons. That's 120 hardpoints, folks. The implication is clear: dreadnoughts are slow but thick with armor and bristling with firepower. There's one more implication: virtual battery rules must be used when fighting with the larger ships.

There are also hints of a wide array of non-standard components which exist at various places in or near Charted Space. For example, the unique drive design of the ANNIC NOVA, the military jump drives of the Scout/Courier, the integrated Jump/Power drive of the Xboat, and Black Globe artifact caches.

The Kinunir is considered a true battle cruiser. Book 2 starship combat tends to be preferred -- although Book 2 has no rules for dealing with armored hulls.



III. SETTING

Setting assumptions for Proto-Traveller are baked into the game's rules (see What is Traveller?). Beyond that, there is sparse support for an early form of the Third Imperium. Since this material is relatively easily ignored, Proto-Traveller is a way to run Traveller with some setting other than the OTU. Typically a "golden age of SF" setting, or a home-brewed one.


The Third Imperium

Supplement 3 said:
The lmperium is a strong interstellar government encompassing 281 subsectors and approximately 11,000 worlds.

Approximately 1100 years old, it is the third human empire to control this area, the oldest, and the strongest.

Nevertheless, it is under strong pressure from its neighboring interstellar governments, and does not have the strength nor the power which it once had.

The Third Imperium is significantly darker than what is later portrayed, and is specifically labelled as declining. Capital physically controls the only known narrow crossing of a Rift that cuts through the local galactic arm. The Spinward Marches could be an actual frontier -- although the Imperium has neighboring interstellar empires which put strong pressure on it.

The Spinward Marches

A flagging political entity such as this Third Imperium is twitchy, prone to rash moves, cannot cover all its bases as it once did. A weakened Imperium means that there are few ships, a short reach, a slow reaction time... especially in the distant and difficult to reach Spinward Marches. Thus, there is an implied vacuum in the Imperial power in the Spinward Marches. Even as it expanded into the region, its power was failing.

The True Frontier

Though the borders of the Proto-Imperium aren't known, what IS known is that the Imperium has open borders. Instead of being hemmed in on every side by client, rival, and sophont empires, the Imperium has unexplored space at its back door.
 
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Starter edition and Merchant Prince are way beyond the 1980 cut off point.

The proto-OTU:
77 rules
LBB4
S1-4, 6
especially this quote from S3:
Imperium:
The lmperium is a strong interstellar government encompassing 281 subsectors and approximately 11,000 worlds.
Approximately 1100 years old, it is the third human empire to control this area, the oldest, and the strongest.
Nevertheless, it is under strong pressure from its neighbouring interstellar governments,
and does not have the strength nor the power which it once had.
A1-3, especially their library data and rumour matrices
Just about any of the double adventures, even those written post 1980.
 
It does feel more Dumarest-like than the later development of Charted Space.

Thanks Mike - updated.
 
This discussion is to clearly spell out the rule/setting combination known as Proto-Traveller. I'll keep this OP updated as the model gets refined.

Proto-Traveller is a small ship, low traffic Traveller Universe which uses only the booklets produced before 1980.

It's still big ship universe, you have Book 5 (1979 printing)...

Frank
 
I have a question:

Do the later interpretations of the UWP stand?

Or, at this point, are the only worlds defined those defined in S03 and Library Data in the Adventures.

That is, are the worlds a "blank slate" for the Referee to interpret.
 
It's still big ship universe, you have Book 5 (1979 printing)...

Yes, and I have a copy of HG1, Frank. Despite that, most of the publications at this point leaned heavily on Book 2 (e.g. Leviathan). I think we all agree that this was an actual transition point, which probably implies a "we'll deal with large ships later" attitude, as well as a very clear "big ships are not for adventuring" vibe.

Do the later interpretations of the UWP stand?

Or, at this point, are the only worlds defined those defined in S03 and Library Data in the Adventures.

That is, are the worlds a "blank slate" for the Referee to interpret.

I'd say we have a blank slate, but I could be wrong.
 
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I'd say we have a blank slate, but I could be wrong.

I would assume so as well. Since for a couple of years it was just those UWPs.

This also means the Referee can postulate a more Dumarest/pulp-like setting of weirder and stranger worlds, societies, and creatures if he wishes.
 
Yes, and I have a copy of HG1, Frank. Despite that, most of the publications at this point leaned heavily on Book 2 (e.g. Leviathan). I think we all agree that this was an actual transition point, which implies a change away from an early assumption (small ships) to a replacement assumption (big ships).




I'd say we have a blank slate, but I could be wrong.

Rob, Leviathan is a hybrid design.
  • It has Armor, which Bk2 does not.
  • It has a configuration, which Bk2 does not.
  • It implies subtly Bk 2 drives

Like the Kinunir, the module was done by the guys at Games Workshop, then purchased by GDW. GDW designs of the era immediately went big ship with Bk 5; the draft of Bk 5 apparently did not inform the users, and both Kinunir and Leviathan are hybrids that appear to be built from a prototype of Bk 5, and match no known design system fully. Since they were released prior to Bk 5 79, and then reprinted after as GDW products...

This is another way of saying, "They do not reflect GDW, but do reflect GW's interpretation of the OTU based upon drafts of Bk 5"... a small ship book 5-79 universe.
 
I'd say we have a blank slate, but I could be wrong.


4YiOu.png
 
What about Striker? On one hand it lets you design all sorts of vehicles. On the other hand, it is the basis for MT's entire design system. On the gripping hand, it presents an entirely different combat system than LBB:1, something Wil can explain better than I.

While I'd like to include Striker, I also think it's too detailed for Proto-Traveller.

In the same vein, what about LBB:8 Robots? While the construction system would be nice to include, the fluff that system brings with it is definitely not Proto-Traveller.

I guess what I'm wondering about is where to draw lines. We all agree that nothing after a certain publication date is Proto-Traveller, but is it possible to draw lines within products? For example, keep the robot design system and discard the setting fluff/chrome?
 
In the same vein, what about LBB:8 Robots? While the construction system would be nice to include, the fluff that system brings with it is definitely not Proto-Traveller.

I guess what I'm wondering about is where to draw lines. We all agree that nothing after a certain publication date is Proto-Traveller, but is it possible to draw lines within products? For example, keep the robot design system and discard the setting fluff/chrome?

Actually, in the first 3 or 4 issues of JTAS, there was a 3-part design system for robots that was the very early predecessor to Book 8. That could probably be used as a substitute.
 
This discussion is to clearly spell out the rule/setting combination known as Proto-Traveller. I'll keep this OP updated as the model gets refined.

Proto-Traveller is a small ship, low traffic Traveller Universe which uses only the booklets produced before 1980.

Its default ruleset is Classic Traveller -- in particular, Starter Traveller is considered the best representation of the Classic Traveller rules. However, since it is past the 1980 cutpoint, some might revert to older editions. LBB4 (Mercenary) and Supplements 1, 2, 3, 4, and 6 are typically accepted, as are Adventures 1-3 and all of the Double Adventures.

The Third Imperium is significantly darker than what is later portrayed, and is specifically labelled as declining. This quote is from Supplement 3:

Originally Posted by Supplement 3
The lmperium is a strong interstellar government encompassing 281 subsectors and approximately 11,000 worlds. Approximately 1100 years old, it is the third human empire to control this area, the oldest, and the strongest. Nevertheless, it is under strong pressure from its neighbouring interstellar governments, and does not have the strength nor the power which it once had.

Capital physically controls a narrow crossing of a Rift whose span is wider than Charted Space. The Spinward Marches is still far from Capital, and may be an actual frontier (although Library Data may still cast doubt on that point). The Kinunir is considered a true battle cruiser. Book 2 starship design and combat tends to be preferred.

I still prefer the Classic Little Black Books/Starter Traveller/The Traveller Book over all of the other editions, and it is what I am working on for my own sector.

However, I still argue that it is not a small-ship universe, as a 5,000 Traveller Displacement Ton ship still equates to a Real World nautical ship of circe 25,000 Gross Register Tons, or 60,000 measurement tons, or circa 67,500 displacement tons. A World War 2 Liberty ship of 7100 Gross Register Tons is a mere 1420 Traveller Displacement Tons. A T2SE tanker is rated at 10,200 Gross Register Tons, or a mere 2100 Traveller Displacement tons, and could transport, in addition to its own fuel, 141,000 barrels of petroleum. A C3 Bayfield-class transport was 7,900 Gross Register Tons, or 1.580 Traveller Displacement Tons, and when used as a transport could carry a reinforced infantry battalion of 1.650 men plus its own crew, along with 600-800 tons of combat cargo. If you use water displacement tons, that 67,500 tons buys you an Iowa-class battleship or a Midway-class aircraft carrier. None of them are what would be called small ships.

I'd say we have a blank slate, but I could be wrong.

I would not say that you have a blank slate, but you do have a lot more freedom to customize the setting to your own purposes.
 
This is another way of saying, "They do not reflect GDW, but do reflect GW's interpretation of the OTU based upon drafts of Bk 5"... a small ship book 5-79 universe.

The fact that Book 5 allowed for gargantuan ships didn't mean one had to have gargantuan ships in one's universe. It was, like the rest of the early line, a toolkit. One could keep the weapons and still keep it small.

And as far as this goes...

However, I still argue that it is not a small-ship universe...

I know I agree with you. But I do think most people mean "small-ship" in contrast to the "preposterously gargantuan ships" that would become the staple of the OTU.
 
The fact that Book 5 allowed for gargantuan ships didn't mean one had to have gargantuan ships in one's universe. It was, like the rest of the early line, a toolkit. One could keep the weapons and still keep it small.

And as far as this goes...



I know I agree with you. But I do think most people mean "small-ship" in contrast to the "preposterously gargantuan ships" that would become the staple of the OTU.

Almost instantly became the default for GDW publications.

I much prefer a 10,000Td cap for MTU, but much prefer a HG-style design system to use them in.

Looking at current wet tonnages...

The MSC's Daewoo-built 192237 GT, 19224 TEU, MSC Oscar exceeds even the 10K Td point.
The Allseas crane-ship Pioneering Spirit as 403,342 GT dwarfs it.

Likewise, the USS Abraham Lincoln is 104,000 wet-displacement tons.

I don't see the need to have ships that big IMTU.
 
Actually, in the first 3 or 4 issues of JTAS, there was a 3-part design system for robots that was the very early predecessor to Book 8. That could probably be used as a substitute.


Thanks, I'd forgotten about those articles!

Of course, that raises the question of where we draw the Proto-Traveller line with regards to JTAS issues? Issue #25, IIRC, was when it was folded into Challenge, but the line must surely be well before that?

Could it be the first time a HG2 article appears? Or will we be able to draw lines within JTAS issues as I suggested with LBB:8?

Also, concerning the Small Ship Universe and Big Ship Universe labels? It's been pretty clear from the start that "small" is being used a relative term; that is LBB:2's ships are considered "small" only when compared to HG2's behemoths.

Sadly, people too often confuse words with the actual thing in question.
 
What about Striker? On one hand it lets you design all sorts of vehicles. On the other hand, it is the basis for MT's entire design system. On the gripping hand, it presents an entirely different combat system than LBB:1, something Wil can explain better than I.

While I'd like to include Striker, I also think it's too detailed for Proto-Traveller.

In the same vein, what about LBB:8 Robots? While the construction system would be nice to include, the fluff that system brings with it is definitely not Proto-Traveller.

I guess what I'm wondering about is where to draw lines. We all agree that nothing after a certain publication date is Proto-Traveller, but is it possible to draw lines within products? For example, keep the robot design system and discard the setting fluff/chrome?

Striker is a 1981 ruleset and so by the OP is not eligible.

I would think Robots and Striker fit firmly into an MT category.
 
It turns out that Proto-Traveller is easier to define than I expected.


Of course, that raises the question of where we draw the Proto-Traveller line with regards to JTAS issues? Issue #25, IIRC, was when it was folded into Challenge, but the line must surely be well before that?

Could it be the first time a HG2 article appears? Or will we be able to draw lines within JTAS issues as I suggested with LBB:8?

Here's the list: http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Journal_of_the_Travellers_Aid_Society#Issue_Listing

Assuming Striker and Merchant Prince are "too late", we're looking at No. 10 at the latest. Assuming the Fifth Frontier War is too late, we're looking at No. 8 (a 1981 issue), with Broadsword Merc Cruisers.

But issues 6 and 7 have the High Guard revisions, which may (or may not be) "suspect".

In other words, there can be lines drawn from within JTAS issues for some time after JTAS 6.

In that vein, I've started an Exclusion List to sift out material not to be considered for Proto-Traveller except by referee decision.
 
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It turns out that Proto-Traveller is easier to define than I expected.




Here's the list: http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Journal_of_the_Travellers_Aid_Society#Issue_Listing

Assuming Striker and Merchant Prince are "too late", we're looking at No. 10 at the latest. Assuming the Fifth Frontier War is too late, we're looking at No. 8 (a 1981 issue), with Broadsword Merc Cruisers.

But issues 6 and 7 have the High Guard revisions, which may (or may not be) "suspect".

In other words, there can be lines drawn from within JTAS issues for some time after JTAS 6.

In that vein, I've started an Exclusion List to sift out material not to be considered for Proto-Traveller except by referee decision.

The Broadsword is a close relative of the Cruiser from Mayday. Mayday 1E is 1978. Mayday 2E is ©1980 (and includes HG conversion notes).

Scout, 100 ton starship. 2G. Modelll bis, 1 laser, 1 missile launcher, one lifeboat. Programs: L,T P2 MI, M, RF,AM M,31,32, N.
Courier, 100 ton starship, 2G. Modelll bis, 1 laser, 1 sandcaster, 1 lifeboat.
Programs: C, T P3 M2, AM J2, N.
Escort,. 100 ton starship, 2G. Modeltf bis, 2 lasers. Programs: T, PI, P2 AE.
RF M,Jl,N.
Free Trader, 200 ton starship. 1G. Model/l, 1 laser, 1 missfle launcher, 1 ship's
boat. Programs: T, L, G AE, RF, AM M, J1, N.
Yacht, 200 ton starship, IG, ModelJ1 bis, 1 laser, 1 sandcaster. 1 shipas boat. Programs: T, L AE, AM M, J1, N.
Transport, 400 ton starship, T G, Modelll , 1 lifeboat. Programs: AE M, J1, N.
Armed Merchant, 400 ton starship, 1 G, Model12, 1 laser, 1 sandcaster, 1 lifeboat. Programs: T, L, P3,G MI, AE, RF,AM M, J1, N.
Destroyer, 400 ton starship, 2G, Model/2 bis, 2 lasers, 1 missile launcher, 1 sand caster, 1 ship's boat. Programs: T, C, G, PI, P3, P4, S1 MT, AE, RF M, J1, J2, M.
Colonial Cruiser, 800 ton starship, 2G, Model/3, 4 lasers, 1 missile launcher,
2 fighters, 1 lifeboat. Programs: C, T, G, PI, P2 MI, AE, RF, AM M, J1, J2, N.
Corsair, 400 ton starship, 2G, Model/2, 2 lasers, 1 missile launcher, 1 pinnace. Programs: all.
(Mayday, 2E, page 13. Ship List)​

note that the 800 ton Merc Cruiser is pretty much an improved Colonial Cruiser. 60 tons of 2 modular cutters in place of 40 tons of 2x10Td + 1x20Td.
 
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