Who calls the Rebellion "the Break"?

[MichaelSTee]

So I was looking thru the wiki the other day, and I noticed this under the entry for "The Wave":

"This is one of the disasters that rocked the Third Imperium: The Break, Virus, and The Wave."

I was curious about the "Break". Never heard anything called this. So I clicked on the link and it took me to entry for "Rebellion":

Rebellion (Redirected from The Break)
"This is one of three disasters that rocked the Third Imperium: The Break, The Wave, and the The Black Ships."

The word "Break" is only mentioned twice on the page, first in the redirection note, and secondly in the list of the 3 disasters. Nowhere else can I find a mention that the Rebellion or Assassination of Strephon might also be called "the Break".

IMHO, these should be fixed. If the Rebellion is also called the Break, then this should be noted. And if two different entries are to refer to the 3 disasters, they should list the same 3 disasters. Honestly I had to click on Black Ships to even know what the heck those are. Not trying to be overly critical or pedantic, just trying to help. Thanks!

 

[mike wightman]

I'm not sure that the authors of the wiki have the break=rebellion correct. The concept of the wave, the break and the black fleets are something the Zhodani will face, not the Imperium.

Anyway this is where it is from:

“Elsewhere in the Consulate are the abbeys that try to divine the future: The
Quixitlatl Path. Some of their psions can see the future. Different people see different
aspects but they agree in general. The Wave. The Great Break. The Black Fleets.
“They only look; we are doing something. Our dancers bend reality to change those
predicted futures. To divert the Wave. To avoid the chaos of the Break. To repel the
Black Fleets. The dancers brought you here. When you arrived, it was clear that you are
part of the second path.

Never take anything you read on the wiki as canon - check the sources.

By the way that is from Agent of the Imperium.

 

[MichaelSTee]

Thanks, Mike. Oh I don't take the wiki to be canon, although it would be nice to trust it.
I've read AotI, but didn't remember that passage you quoted. I've only read it once.

 

[mike wightman]

You are most welcome.

As I was posting it a couple of things struck me
1- these are threats against the Zhodani (as I said)
2- the purpose of the Zhodani "dance" is to effect changes on the precog future
3- Bland is part of "the second path"

So, are the "paths" manufactured futures to deal with each threat?
Are they in order - to divert the wave, to avoid the chaos of the break and then to deal with the black fleet threat - and thus Bland will affect the chaos of the break.

Wave is likely to mean Empress Wave, and we know about the Black Fleet threat (although we don't know where it originated, or to what purpose). The break could refer to the collapse of Zhodani society following the wave, or it could be something else, and it may or may not involve Bland.

 

[mike wightman]

This could reconcile the TNE wave with the retcon, the retcon is the partial result of the "dancers".

Timeline	Empress Wave	Rebellion	Virus	TNE
1	lightspeed	as per MT	as per MT/TNE	as per GDW
2*	FTL	as per MT	as per MT/TNE	not as written**
3	FTL diverted	as per MT	as per MT/TNE	not as written***
4****	dealt with	avoided	doesn't happen	no need

* This is close to the MgT ATU (although its sectors change between editions too)
** The Zhodani exodus of the TNE would have had to have started much sooner with an FTL wave.
***There would be no need of a Zhodani exodus
****This is getting close to the GT:ATU

Now if only there were a technology to allow jumping from timeline to timeline...

 

[Baroun Tardis]

Now if only there were a technology to allow jumping from timeline to timeline...

There's an entry for "Reality Drives" in T5, with an R-1 drive at TL-28

 

[mike wightman]

There is also likely a special psionic talent that could do it too

 

[BackworldTraveller]

Which comes back to the Wiki and Canon. All the versions listed above were/are canon. Arguably, even Canon can't be guaranteed as canon. As to trusting the wiki...given it's built on quicksand by volunteers, it's as trustworthy as it can be.
Until it isn't.

 

[mike wightman]

The chapter in AotI where the break is mentioned involves Bland encountering a peculiar group of Zhodani. It is these Zhodani that talk about the wave, the break and the black fleets - and they are all threats against the Zhodani, not the Imperium (although there may be overlap)
As I said the wave threat is likely the Empress Wave, the black ships we know all about thanks to the short stories, it is the break that is the mysterious bit.
Why would the Zhodani worry about another rebellion and civil war within the Imperium which doesn't affect them and they have a more pressing threat, the wave, to deal with?

Despite them being portrayed as stupid the Zhodani are anything but. Once they learn of the wave they can jump over it and study the affected space in the wave's wake. They can send volunteers to worlds about to be hit by the wave and learn about it. They may or may not have a means to divert it (the retconned maguffin on Rhylanor being a particularly silly idea when you think about it).

The black ships can be dealt with by old fashioned means - scout out systems they have entered and then assemble a fleet to wipe them out. At some point someone will have to try and learn where they originated and what their true purpose is.

But the break, break in what?

 

[GypsyComet]

The Great Break page has been updated to reflect what we know, and to include some of the speculation in this topic. "The Break" now redirects to Great Break, which is how it is first referenced in Agent.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

I was curious about the "Break". Never heard anything called this. So I clicked on the link and it took me to entry for "Rebellion":

Rebellion (Redirected from The Break)
"This is one of three disasters that rocked the Third Imperium: The Break, The Wave, and the The Black Ships."

The word "Break" is only mentioned twice on the page, first in the redirection note, and secondly in the list of the 3 disasters. Nowhere else can I find a mention that the Rebellion or Assassination of Strephon might also be called "the Break".

IMHO, these should be fixed. If the Rebellion is also called the Break, then this should be noted. And if two different entries are to refer to the 3 disasters, they should list the same 3 disasters. Honestly I had to click on Black Ships to even know what the heck those are. Not trying to be overly critical or pedantic, just trying to help. Thanks!

I think Virus rates higher on the disaster scale than the Imperium breaking apart.

It is mixing in-universe and I think editorial commentary on the part of the writer of the wiki entry. In order to write in THAT past tense, the three events must have happened so we are talking an entry of 1902 IY. On that basis though, I might question the neutrality of the wiki entry. I think "The Break" is an inappropriate term. Depending on what year you are talking about and which histories are consider valid.
FIRST: Which history records does the writer, and in turn Maksim and other keepers of the wiki acknowledge survive to 1902?

• If only the records are taken from soley from MegaTraveller history, then we KNOW that after Arrival Vengeance in 1128, there are effectively only two factions left still pretending to be the Imperium: Margaret and Lucan. The rest have given up the pretense by renaming their realms (Federation of Illelish and Daibei), abdicating (Strephon) or effectively separating forever (The Vilani, Norris and Antares). The rest were not Imperium.
• If Virus destroyed all records outside Regina and other pockets, then all they may know was that Lucan and Margaret were still fighting until The Wave made everyone crazy.
• If you include 1248 records (T5 says its an era of history ), we may also know other things. Depending like Margaret's Realm was finally completely and utterly destroyed by Virus in 1179. She herself had died 10 years earlier leaving Lucan (or Viral Lucan, heh heh) as the surviving claimant to the Third Imperium. If Viral Lucan doesn't count then 1170.
• If you are using TNE information, then Norris' journey is known to the public. From a Regina standpoint, The Third Imperium died in 1128 when Norris declared the rest of the Imperium was lost.

The Break, if anything, should signify Norris' abandonment of the factions and not a disaster. Not on the same level as Virus, the Wave and Black Ships.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

MY opinion: If you are writing as a neutral wiki, continue to do so. Putting sentimentality and romanticizing the old Third Imperium does not seem appropriated.
Also: I really think the powers that be who decide on such things, need to settle what really happened, even if it is "no one in-universe, except maybe Yaskodray, knows this ...." sort of history and be done with it.

 

[mike wightman]

Virus is an overblown excuse.

Remember that most CT/MT material is written in universe by an unreliable Imperial narrator.

Being able to blame Virus removes the true blame, namely the corruption and authoritarianism that had caused the decline of the Third Imperium in the first place, as mentioned in the first supplement to detail the Third Imperium - The Spinward Marches. The Imperium was set up to be in its end days, the Fifth Frontier War was a stalemate the Imperium used for PR purposes, the assassination and fragmentation were always going to happen.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Thematically, yes I agree. But I think you are looking too much at one tree and not the forest. My long winded example is my pointing repercussions on the events written about in the wiki by cherry picking which events occurred in the past as far as IY 1902 is concerned. My understanding of the premise of 1902 they don't know all that much of the past because people and data got wiped from Virus AND The Wave. So what then is the in-universe explanation that such an entry is gospel (we will avoid using "canon" LOL). A wish for some fabled happy kumbaya past Camelot? If the assertion is that it is neutral, this is FACT and in turn IRL some decision has been on how other writers are to write past eras. and thus canon.

I contend that the wiki needs to be better and more objectively written, otherwise you are merely trading one unreliable narrator for another.

 

[mike wightman]

Until the "truth" is revealed by MWM in one of his novels or some other medium we are left with:
existing printed canon
existing ATU canon such as GT and MgT
retconned canon - eg empress wave
fanon turned canon - MgT suffers a bit from this (see personal energy shields, a sentient being required to be onboard for jump travel)
fanon written to the wiki

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Careful now sir. I hear the restless hooves of Cyberponies from The GODS of Thunder neighing in the background, halberds at the ready waiting to come back.

 

[Garnfellow]

This could reconcile the TNE wave with the retcon, the retcon is the partial result of the "dancers".

Timeline	Empress Wave	Rebellion	Virus	TNE
1	lightspeed	as per MT	as per MT/TNE	as per GDW
2*	FTL	as per MT	as per MT/TNE	not as written**
3	FTL diverted	as per MT	as per MT/TNE	not as written***
4****	dealt with	avoided	doesn't happen	no need

* This is close to the MgT ATU (although its sectors change between editions too)
** The Zhodani exodus of the TNE would have had to have started much sooner with an FTL wave.
***There would be no need of a Zhodani exodus
****This is getting close to the GT:ATU

Now if only there were a technology to allow jumping from timeline to timeline...

I think something very much like this -- branching realities -- is probably the best way forward. It reconciles the different threads and offers many possible adventures. Play through the Rebellion but give the Travellers an opportunity to actually affect the events.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Now if only there were a technology to allow jumping from timeline to timeline...

Deliberately jumping in a pre-planned and controlled way ... probably not.

MISjumping though ... in an UNplanned and UNcontrolled way, however ...

Of course, at that point you're basically pulling a sort of "soft isekai" in your space opera.

 

[whulorigan]

Well, concerning the "Break": The "Great Break" is probably referring to the breaking of the timeline, and subsequent unfolding of Charted Space History (remembering that in T5/AotI there is Reality Manipulation and practical Psychohistorical Prediction at Ultra-High TL).

Is it the Rebellion or the unperturbed Imperium of the "Lorenverse"? That is the "Great Break": The Assassination (or rather the earlier alteration in the timeline that leads to it or doesn't) - does it happen or not? The rebellion and its subsequent timeline affects far more than just the Imperium, and there are two paths forward in evidence. All of Charted Space unfolds differently as a result. Post-Rebellion, the Zhodani are content with the internal problems within the Imperium, and then the size of the resultant Regency. No reason for any continuing tensions between the two powers (esp. with Norris as Head of State). With a continuing stable Imperium in the Lorenverse, the political situation is quite different, with a likely quite different future for the Consulate. The Wave of course will hit both timeline scenarios in due course. The Two Thousand Worlds and Lords of Thunder likewise end up in two very different places in the two timelines. As does the disposition and scope of free-willed AI.

Ultimately ultra-high TL psychohistorical prediction shows that the events of Charted Space unfold to roughly where they would have been anyway in aggregate in the long term by year 1902. (This is the "Riverbed Theory of Time" model previously discussed by Marc Miller in his discussions about the Ancients). And is this how the Zhodani Dancers are affecting things, by manipulating people subtly en masse and changing the psychohistorical equation?

 

[mike wightman]

The great break is a Zhodani event.