Who is the Trav Wiki Audience in 2017?

[maksimsmelchak]

Who is the Trav Wiki Audience in 2017?

I see the following audiences:

Net Consumers (Readers)

• Fans
• Players
• Referees

Net Producers (Developers)

• Authors
• Marc W. Miller & FFE
• Mongoose Product Writers & Developers
• Novel writers
• Periodical writers
• Illustrators
• Artists
• Painters

Pedants

• Contest producers
• Planet Grab world writers
• Traveller researchers

----
Net consumers and net producers each use the wiki in different, but sometimes compatible ways.

Entries should ideally be configured to serve both audiences.

*** Who do you envision is our audience? ***
- Maksim-Smelchak

http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Forum:Who_is_the_Trav_Wiki_Audience_in_2017?

 

[maksimsmelchak]

How old are Traveller fans? (2017)

We have another big consideration: the ages of our audience...

We have two primary groups:

• Younger folk: (Ages: 12 to 40)
  [minority audience, folks being exposed to Traveller, primarily through Mongoose, AKA "New Trav Audience"]

• Older folk: (Ages: 41 to 90)
  [majority audience, the folks who grew up with Traveller, AKA "Trav Grognards & Veterans"]

----
*** What are the various considerations for the different ages of the audience for this wiki? ***
- Maksim-Smelchak

 

[flykiller]

do you intend any distinction between formal and informal "producers"?

 

[maksimsmelchak]

Do you intend any distinction between formal and informal "producers"?

*** What do you think? Everything is open, FK. Nothing is set in stone. ***

I would be most grateful to hear your thoughts on the issue.

Shalom,
M.

 

[Kilgs]

Being 42 and not really a grognard (rediscovering Traveller around 2007), I would suggest the following...

On Pedants
"A pedant is a person who is excessively concerned with formalism, accuracy, and precision, or one who makes an ostentatious and arrogant show of learning."

Really? Lose that group heading. Why is there even a third category since every sub listed under "Pedant" seems to be covered by the first two groups? Perspective is the only outlier.

Tact, man. Pretty sure that "pedant" is pejorative and subjective.

===
On a more constructive note, it definitely needs a better division between canon and non-canon material. All non-canon material should be listed at the bottom and way outside canon material. (That includes fleet listings/rosters unless canonical).

The citation system should be upgraded to include in-line citations (footnote identifiers). More obvious demarcation/direction on milieu differences (better headlines/captions).

As for audiences, no offense but even though Traveller Map and Miller have gone T5-compatible, the wiki should definitely delineate that information as T5 milieu. I have no idea what changes are being made to astrographic/UWP information (in T5) but that means no one else does either except someone who actually did the coding/generation. It would suck to be a Traveller newbie with Mongoose or whatever and not see the right data in the wiki easily. Such as data from their new Mongoose sourcebook or something. It might also drive them away.

==TNS SECTION
Last point, I spent a considerable amount of time putting together all the TNS information on a sector once. From 900-1130 as it was for a Hard Times idea. It occurred to me that it would be really cool to have a TNS section on sector/subsector/planet pages. A timeline of canonical (and well-labelled non-canonical) events that would aid someone in getting a feel for the location.

 

[Sstefan]

==TNS SECTION
.... It occurred to me that it would be really cool to have a TNS section on sector/subsector/planet pages. A timeline of canonical (and well-labelled non-canonical) events that would aid someone in getting a feel for the location.

Sounds like a great idea, I'll look into it once I get back to updating the Empty Quarter....

 

[The Pakkrat]

Timelines for Coreward Sectors

On most of the worlds I develop in Knoellighz Sector, I try to include a timeline style of Eras, e.g. Classic, Rebellion, Hard Times, Collapse and Virus Era, and The New Era and the given world's reactions and adaptations. It's not TNS, especially since Knoellighz is out in the Vargr Extents and along the border of the Zhodani Consulate, but it's something for a Referee to latch onto, right?

Have a look at one example, both the Page and the Discussion at Dongoukaeg.

http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Dongoukaeg_(world)

 

[maksimsmelchak]

Being 42 and not really a grognard (rediscovering Traveller around 2007), I would suggest the following...

On Pedants
"A pedant is a person who is excessively concerned with formalism, accuracy, and precision, or one who makes an ostentatious and arrogant show of learning."

Really? Lose that group heading. Why is there even a third category since every sub listed under "Pedant" seems to be covered by the first two groups? Perspective is the only outlier.

Tact, man. Pretty sure that "pedant" is pejorative and subjective.

===
On a more constructive note, it definitely needs a better division between canon and non-canon material. All non-canon material should be listed at the bottom and way outside canon material. (That includes fleet listings/rosters unless canonical).

The citation system should be upgraded to include in-line citations (footnote identifiers). More obvious demarcation/direction on milieu differences (better headlines/captions).

As for audiences, no offense but even though Traveller Map and Miller have gone T5-compatible, the wiki should definitely delineate that information as T5 milieu. I have no idea what changes are being made to astrographic/UWP information (in T5) but that means no one else does either except someone who actually did the coding/generation. It would suck to be a Traveller newbie with Mongoose or whatever and not see the right data in the wiki easily. Such as data from their new Mongoose sourcebook or something. It might also drive them away.

==TNS SECTION
Last point, I spent a considerable amount of time putting together all the TNS information on a sector once. From 900-1130 as it was for a Hard Times idea. It occurred to me that it would be really cool to have a TNS section on sector/subsector/planet pages. A timeline of canonical (and well-labelled non-canonical) events that would aid someone in getting a feel for the location.

Thank you for your feedback.

The pedant language comes from another wiki contributor. I can discuss it with him and see how he feels about it.

I love your suggestions about canon / non-canon lines as well as other expansion ideas and would welcome concrete ideas or even help making it happen.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[maksimsmelchak]

Sounds like a great idea, I'll look into it once I get back to updating the Empty Quarter....

Sstefan,

Your work is amazing and greatly enhances the wiki. Thank you very much.

Can't wait until you have some available bandwidth and get back to the wiki. PM me sometime s o we can talk. I want to cooperate and make your goal of completing the empty Quarter happen. I'll help input data or otherwise make it happen.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[maksimsmelchak]

On most of the worlds I develop in Knoellighz Sector, I try to include a timeline style of Eras, e.g. Classic, Rebellion, Hard Times, Collapse and Virus Era, and The New Era and the given world's reactions and adaptations. It's not TNS, especially since Knoellighz is out in the Vargr Extents and along the border of the Zhodani Consulate, but it's something for a Referee to latch onto, right?

Have a look at one example, both the Page and the Discussion at Dongoukaeg.

http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Dongoukaeg_(world)

Pakkrat,

Thank you for all of your amazing writing and work at the wiki. Many of your articles are huge fan favorites and among the pages with the highest number of hits.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[Timerover51]

Greetings Maksim, rather than starting a new thread, I will post this here, and let you decide if it should go to a new thread.

First, in answer to the opening question, who is the Wiki audience, I think that I qualify under all three categories. I definitely am a consumer and also a pedant, but with the addition of my Survival Ration to the Wiki, I am now in the Developer category as well. I will try to make more contributions in that area in the near future.

My comment with respect to the Wiki is that is does not cover all of the various editions and information on the planets in particularly the Spinward Marches. I was just looking up information on Biter and Hofud in the Sword Worlds, and while the Spinward Marches book has Hofud at B666553 A B, the Wiki for Milieu 1116 at B666853-A, a major change in the population exponent. Which is correct? Spinward Marches came out in 1979, and obviously the Wiki is far more recent than that, but it still is puzzling. Given that it is listed as a "garden world", I would be tempted to bump the population exponent to "7", rather than "8", but that is just me.

The Biter entry also needs some clean-up for the population figure, as the population exponent is 6, but the population is listed as "has a population between 100,000 and 10 million sophonts." That should be between 1,000,000 and 10 millions sophonts. It also is a bit small for the atmosphere, but that happens a lot in the Spinward Marches book.

 

[Kilgs]

I use the wiki quite a bit also (linking from Traveller Map). I would echo Timerover's general point... it's sometimes really hard to figure out which source is being used for information. Is it T5, MT, CT... etc ad nauseam.

Citations are listed but there is no in-line citation system which tends to boggle things. In addition, the non-canon stuff is cool but again it is integrated with other information making it seem canon.

 

[whulorigan]

I use the wiki quite a bit also (linking from Traveller Map). I would echo Timerover's general point... it's sometimes really hard to figure out which source is being used for information. Is it T5, MT, CT... etc ad nauseam. Citations are listed but there is no in-line citation system which tends to boggle things.

There is an in-line citation system (see the Rhylanor (world) page as an example), but it has only been introduced fairly recently, meaning that there are a HUGE number of existing articles that need to be retroactively in-line cited to sources.

In addition, the non-canon stuff is cool but again it is integrated with other information making it seem canon.

This is an issue that has been discussed, but for which no final method of resolution has been agreed upon. I personally think an additional tab at the top (alongside the "Page" and "Discussion" tabs) for "Fanon" material would work. Move everything that has never appeared in print to the Fanon-tab, and leave everything that can be tied to a published reference (whether currently canonical or non-canonical) on the "Page" tab (and rename the Page tab to something more appropriate). With the in-line citations, the sources would be easily distinguished.

 

[The Pakkrat]

The Ignorable Tab

Should the traveller wiki implement a "Fanon" Tab, thus forcing almost 100% of my sector development in the Vargr Extents to this second-class existence, what will happen is an unbalanced state where the article tab will read the most basic, boring, minimal, official information on the article topic and displacing the creativity of the contributor to the Damnation Tab and branding their creativity as ignorable, unworthy, too lame to read, beneath your notice.

That, to me, does not do well to invite contributors to help expand and detail parts of Charted Space that are grossly underdeveloped. Myself, I have contributed to the development of Knoellighz, Angfutsag, and am currently engrossed in Gzaefueg Sector development. And you want to the wiki to retroactively displace all those articles, world write-ups, and even snippets of augmentations to canon article details to a We Care Not For Your Unpublished Hard Work, Plebian area of the wiki?

Sure. Find time to go back and comb through every contribution on the traveller wiki to sift the precious canon from the chaff of creative contributors for the elitist peace of mind. You might see a contributor exodus. :CoW:

Contributors to the wiki are just as needed as those landed knights of official publications.

 

[Whipsnade]

Contributors to the wiki are just as needed as those landed knights of official publications.

Fanon can and should stand on it's own. Fanon should not rely on proximity to or mingling with canon to attract readers. Fanon does not automatically equate substandard work nor is it a derogatory term. Fanon is fanon and, like anything else, should be judged on it's own merits.

Star Trek's wiki differentiates between canon and fanon. If Traveller is the "Third sci-fi setting" along with Star Trek and Star Wars as many claim, Traveller's wiki should do the same.

 

[tjoneslo]

Fanon can and should stand on it's own. Fanon should not rely on proximity to or mingling with canon to attract readers. Fanon does not automatically equate substandard work nor is it a derogatory term. Fanon is fanon and, like anything else, should be judged on it's own merits.

Star Trek's wiki differentiates between canon and fanon. If Traveller is the "Third sci-fi setting" along with Star Trek and Star Wars as many claim, Traveller's wiki should do the same.

Sigh, this again.

The contributions to the wiki are done by volunteers. If the contributors feel that the separation of the material in this manner is useful, the technical changes to make this happen are simple to implement.

The wiki makes changes based upon the consensus of the contributors.

 

[Whipsnade]

Sigh, this again.

Yes, this again. Have you ever stopped to consider why the same issue keeps being raised by so many different people? Or why the same issue keeps coming up every time the Wiki is discussed?

The contributions to the wiki are done by volunteers.

Volunteers run the Trek wiki too. Your point being?

If the contributors feel that the separation of the material in this manner is useful, the technical changes to make this happen are simple to implement.

So, contributors and not users? We already know what the contributors think. That's why the Wiki is in the shape it is.

The wiki makes changes based upon the consensus of the contributors.

Which might be a problem. Do you see Traveller Map dismissing user feedback with something like "Well, the contributors think..."? Traveller Map knows it exists for all it's users while the Wiki wants to believe that contributors are the only users which count.

You can ignore me. My opinion of the Wiki is well known and I've received infractions for stating that opinion. You shouldn't ignore all the other voices saying much the same thing, however.

Read this thread and start listening to those other members.

 

[The Pakkrat]

Wiki Main Page

On the Main Page of the Traveller Wiki it says...

"Note to Traveller Authors
The Traveller RPG Wiki is not considered a canonical source for any Traveller materials. If you, as an author or pedant, need to cite Traveller canon we encourage you to refer to the original primary source materials.
When doing research for your game or writing project, please contact the Research Department or a Master AAB Librarian about your needs to ensure the articles are updated with appropriate sources and background information.
- Master AAB Librarian & Traveller Wiki Editorial Team"

That's a pretty blanket statement, right at the front page. I read that as being the wiki is not a canonical reference tool though it might draw upon canon for its sources. That puts the ball in the court of the contributors first, allow them freedom to contribute without the persecution of Us/Them partitions that, yes they do put up walls, telling the User to ignore, discount or write off contributions. This dampens the spirit of why contributors devote such creativity.


In my case, I see more work from contributors in the Vargr Extents and Vargr Enclaves than published canon. My work, Stellar Reaches, the Gvurrdon Sectorbook, and a few other potential contributors whom I hope will continue with their works on Tuglikki and Meshan Sectors are but a few examples. The Traveller Wiki is the haven for such contribution and has, as stated above, been that refuge from cononmongers who would slap labels and erect walls.


Reliably, every week, I see on the COTI Discord server, someone posting links to some article from the Traveller Wiki. They hold it as a valued resource for the consideration of those Referees, developers, and players with questions. Happily, I do not see them say anything about canon or non-canon when they note that something is readily available to provide answers. If the Traveller Wiki has sparked the imagination and creativity to offer up a campaign, Referee to potential players, such partitions are of little value.

 

[Whipsnade]

On the Main Page of the Traveller Wiki it says...

There are warnings on cigarette packages too and with much the same effect.

Happily, I do not see them say anything about canon or non-canon...

They don't say anything about canon because they assume the Wiki to be canon and we see people making that same assumption here every week.

I find it odd that you're so fearful of your material being under a fanon tab. On the one hand you're understandably proud of your work, yet on the other hand you're absolutely petrified that it could no longer "mingle" with canon.

The truth is people will use it if it's good. Your work stands on it's own merits and you shouldn't be afraid to let it stand on it's own merits.

 

[aramis]

Fanon does not automatically equate substandard work nor is it a derogatory term. Fanon is fanon and, like anything else, should be judged on it's own merits.

Fannon most definitely carries a derogatory connotation for me.

Most people I know consider it lesser, because if it were good enough, the author would have attempted to get it into a licensed product or even an official one - more so for games than other media, but...