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General Wouldn't any Tech proliferate as fast as travel throughout the Imperium?

Spinward Scout

SOC-14 5K
Baron
Once a certain item is released to the public, no matter it's Tech Level, shouldn't it make it's way through the Imperium at the speed of travel?

Gauss Pistols show up at TL-13, I believe.

As soon as these are released to market on any World, shouldn't anyone with enough credits be buying one or more? I mean, in real life, the iPhone is flying off the shelves as soon as it's released.

Would anyone be using old or substandard equipment if they can afford otherwise?

The Tech Level of a World has to do with Production, right? Not Import power.

As soon as some new Tech is even advertised, wouldn't the big MegaCorporations be selling it?

And wouldn't the Tech Level limit on Equipment in Character Generation not really make sense then?
 
Once a certain item is released to the public, no matter it's Tech Level, shouldn't it make it's way through the Imperium at the speed of travel?

Gauss Pistols show up at TL-13, I believe.

As soon as these are released to market on any World, shouldn't anyone with enough credits be buying one or more? I mean, in real life, the iPhone is flying off the shelves as soon as it's released.

Would anyone be using old or substandard equipment if they can afford otherwise?

The Tech Level of a World has to do with Production, right? Not Import power.

As soon as some new Tech is even advertised, wouldn't the big MegaCorporations be selling it?

And wouldn't the Tech Level limit on Equipment in Character Generation not really make sense then?
They might be available -- if there's a market and the infrastructure to support it. Yeah, someone in Arbitrarily Chosen Un-Developed Nation might be able to afford the latest iPhone. But, does Arbitrarily Chosen Un-Developed Nation have a 4G cell network, or an internet to connect it to?

What machining tolerances are needed to make the ammunition for that Gauss Pistol? It may not be cheap at lower TLs.
 
Do you own a 5G phone?

Did you build and install the 5G tower and data centre?

The iphone example also includes the building of the network infrastructure, which is a lot easier than burying cables everywhere,

As to the gauss pistol, I would like to buy a DD AR-15 and a Glock 21- I can't because I live in the UK and it is illegal.
 
TL has several meanings, depending on the context of the world the TL is attached to. Traveller is typically written with silence on the differences, though hints are there in most editions, and explicit in DGP materials for late CT and all of MT.

(1) For the most part, TL in a UWP is what the world can design, build, and maintain on its own, even if it doesn't for some reason (like neighbors who can build it cheaper, etc.)
(2) In a setting, or part of a setting, where worlds are politically and economically isolated by default, TL is also likely to represent what that world understands as possible. A politically isolated TL12 world might have some clues about what TL13 is capable of, but hasn't gotten there yet and may not know of anyone who has. If such a world has a higher TL neighbor that doesn't share, the lower TL world may not even know how far ahead the other world is. Despite the Imperium being the setting default, the TL limit on muster equipment is in place with this more restrictive model in mind. Many prior careers do not assume that you left your homeworld prior to muster.
(3) In a region/setting where something makes friendly commerce the default (like the Imperium), TL becomes more like (1) above, but with the footnote that "catalog sales of higher tech items are available, and take 4 to 6 weeks to fill." Such items might also be available in stores on the lower TL world, but they were designed and built elsewhere, and any repairs will use parts and training from elsewhere. This assumption can also support the TL limit at muster if you've looked at the various articles on Traveller economics, as lower TL economies may not have the buying power to bring in high tech goods in sufficient quantity to make them available for something like the Muster shopping list. Additionally, if you are a Small Ships Universe heretic the commerce is reduced to luxury items. The Free Trader showing up at some backwater with five Air/Rafts is greeted with excitement since he's doubling the number of working Air/Rafts on the planet.
 
If the iPhone becomes illegal to own.

The real issue with gauss weapon systems are that they are overkill for civilians, unless they plan to hunt tee rexes; so gunpow(d)ered firearms would be permissible, for hunting and self defence.

Some jurisdictions could allow a loophole, if you can show cause.
 
As soon as these are released to market on any World, shouldn't anyone with enough credits be buying one or more? I mean, in real life, the iPhone is flying off the shelves as soon as it's released.
The correct answer to your question is ... it depends on how many credits are involved and how secure the supply chain for imports is.

Without enough credits, importers are not going to sell to you. Full stop.

The "supply chain issues" basically amounts to a matter of Market Size (how many OTHER people are demanding the same product) creating enough of a demand signal for a supplier (or several) to emerge to meet that demand (and scoop up the market for those credits). As others have alluded to in their answers above, without a network infrastructure 🗼 your iPhone loses a LOT of its capabilities which rely upon (external to the device itself) network services. If you're getting "zero bars" of signal to your iPhone, MOST of what you would want to have it for (not all, but most) will basically "stop working" when you can't access The Network™.
Would anyone be using old or substandard equipment if they can afford otherwise?
If they have infinite credits and unlimited contacts/friends/patrons who can obtain better for them ... then NO.

Does that describe EVERYONE in existence?
Oh hell NO. :mad:

Will people be using "what they can obtain and afford to use" ... probably. :rolleyes:
Note that "afford to use" is doing a MASSIVE amount of heavy lifting in that assertion, because that "afford to use" point includes BOTH the "got enough credits" as well as "supply chain issues" points that I just raised above.
The Tech Level of a World has to do with Production, right? Not Import power.
Almost ... but not quite.
You're oversimplifying things a bit too much, I reckon. :unsure:

The way I see it is that Population: 6- (Non-industrial) worlds have "immature" economies which must import a lot of their finished goods.
LBB3.81, p16:
Non-industrial worlds are forced to import much of their finished goods.
What this means is that Population: 6- world economies are primarily oriented around resource extraction and are often "economically dependent" upon other star systems (for finished goods, for starters). In broad brushstroke terms, this means that Non-industrial worlds tend to function a lot like "colonies" that produce raw materials and then trade those raw materials for finished goods.

Population: 7+ worlds are the ones with economies "mature" enough to have diversified into the production of finished goods.

Industrial worlds have LARGE production bases for the manufacturing of finished goods ... but they need a lot of resources to "power" that production, which are (of course) obtained "more cheaply" from Non-industrial worlds, creating a natural flow of supply and demand in both directions.
The Tech Level of a World has to do with Production, right? Not Import power.
Like I said above ... almost, but not quite.

Tech Level measures the level of technological sophistication you can EXPECT TO FIND on a world, meaning that products of that tech level are "routinely obtainable" (unless restricted by Law Level, of course).

Whether or not a world is the PRODUCER of products of that tech level, using the world economy to Make Stuff™ ... comes down to a question of whether the item in question is "raw materials" or some kind of "finished goods" to be bought and sold. Most manufactured items (particularly high tech ones) will tend to qualify as "finished goods" and will thus tend to require a Population: 7+ world to manufacture and supply them.

This point is actually made explicitly in the Travellerwiki in the Missile and the Anti-shipping Missile articles in the History & Background (Dossier) section of each article. I'm presuming that such notation is not an accident or otherwise in error.

So to answer your question more precisely:
  • Population: 7+ worlds produce finished goods up to their tech level, subject to law level restrictions.
  • Population: 6- worlds import finished goods up to their tech level, subject to law level restrictions.
However, that's a BROAD generalization. It's perfectly possible (in theory) to obtain incredibly high tech imported "stuff" on a low tech world ... but the price you would need to pay for it ... 😭 ... forget about the arms and legs, it'll cost you your entire torso. 💰:devilish:💰

If you've got the credits to pay for that kind of usury highway robbery arbitrage ... there's probably going to be a "supplier" willing to import whatever you want (at an appropriately exorbitant price, of course). :cool:🚬
As soon as some new Tech is even advertised, wouldn't the big MegaCorporations be selling it?
Depends.
If it's military tech ... probably not. Law levels might get involved.
That's why you can't find plutonium in every corner drugstore. :sneaky:


If it's "civilian tech" ... possibly ... but it depends on how "willing" world markets are to import (and embrace) the new product ... and what sort of Entrenched Interests™ they might have to go up against in those markets they want to export to. For a current day/real world example of the kind of "resistance to technological advancement" that I'm talking about, look no further than the Battery Electric Vehicle revolution in ground transportation and aviation happening RIGHT NOW all across our globe. Look at the Solar+Wind+Batteries revolution in power grid technology happening right now ... and all of the pushback coming from Entrenched Interests™ that don't want to be made obsolete (and kicked out of the market) just yet.

To put it mildly ... it's not that simple ... or at least, not as simple and your question blithely postulates the matter as being.

The term Luddite exists for a reason ... and that reason isn't necessarily confined to past history.
When the livelihoods and fortunes of Entrenched Interests™ get threatened by innovation and disruption, those Entrenched Interests™ tend to band together to FIGHT BACK against the innovation and disruption that threatens them. After all, no one wants their "gravy train" that they've been riding on (comfortably) to be "derailed" and stop working.

In short, this is not a One Size Fits All type of question and answer.
There are a LOT of details to consider ... including the age old "Not Invented Here" xenophobia that even corporations (mega or otherwise) can fall prey to (partly as a means to "defend their turf" and sustain themselves as an Entrenched Interest™).
And wouldn't the Tech Level limit on Equipment in Character Generation not really make sense then?
Distribution of goods is not ... uniform ... across all worlds within a single polity (pocket empire or otherwise).
Character Generation (LBB1) was designed to be "origin agnostic enough" to be plausible in as wide a range of campaign setting circumstances as possible, rather than being tailored for a specific OTU location, era or setting.

A better answer would be that if a Player can concoct a rationale that passes muster(ing out) with a Referee, then some "bending of the rules" to enable a specific outcome (I got better tech level equipment as a result of character generation) becomes possible ... but it's going to take some EFFORT on the part of the Player to concoct the details of that specific part of the character's backstory and history which the Referee then has to approve of.

In other words, it CAN be done ... but there are "no guarantees" by default that it will be permitted. :sneaky:
 
As soon as these are released to market on any World, shouldn't anyone with enough credits be buying one or more? I mean, in real life, the iPhone is flying off the shelves as soon as it's released.

No. Depends on market demand 100%. The Pinephone was released and it is FAR more secure than any android phone and they can't give them away.
 
The last bit is maintaining your kit in a lower tech environment. CT Striker goes over this in detail, the items are both more expensive and cost more to maintain since the parts and support has to be imported rather then resting on extant infrastructure.

This was for game effects, forcing merc orgs to base most firepower on local tech while choosing a few high tech items to create that critical edge. But good enough to cover that laser carbine personal guard on a steam powered world.
 
The last bit is maintaining your kit in a lower tech environment. CT Striker goes over this in detail, the items are both more expensive and cost more to maintain since the parts and support has to be imported rather then resting on extant infrastructure.
The same principles can be applied to all manner of space faring craft, with starships being the obvious case of "going places with differing technology levels" as well as capacity for production, maintenance and support.

Having "the highest possible tech available" is GREAT ... on paper ... when all you're dealing with is a spreadsheet of items and checkboxes at the naval architect's office. After all, you get "all the bestest stuffs" to put into your starship, maximizing your tonnage efficiency! What's not to like? :rolleyes:

Then you travel(ler) out into the "REAL Sector" ... and find out that all your kickin' ultra tech comes with a leash attached to it preventing you from straying too far away from the technological and industrial base that can maintain your starship. :oops: Logistics for "parts & spares" for your starship, which is Way Too High Tech For The Boonies™, prevents you from going too far afield.

If an army marches on its stomach, then a starship flies on its technological supplier base.
Not enough high tech (where and when you need it) and your starship will start breaking down ... and you won't be able to repair it, because the parts you need "don't turn up around here" that often out in the sticks.



This is why, in my (personal) old age ... I've come around on the notion that going as LOW tech as you can, while still getting the capabilities you want and need for your operations, is the SMART play. Don't let the "perfect" TL=15 high tech wonder be the enemy of the "good enough" TL=10 average tech that can get the job done ... because supplies of the former are limited, while supplies of the latter are MUCH easier to source and obtain.



This is where low tech LBB2 standard drive "small" starships can have a pretty measurable advantage (in both cost and maintainability) over LBB5 custom drive "small through big" starships when you're looking at the ACS design space of 100-1000 tons. Additionally, you don't necessarily NEED to have 1J4=4 parsecs capability if 2J2=4 parsecs capability can get the job of having adequate ferry range "done" for you and your operations aren't critically time sensitive (which most tramp merchant operations are not). Those "low tech advantages" don't exactly show up in the naval architect's design spreadsheet ... but they DO show up once you take delivery and need to start operating along interstellar routes to make a living (and stay in business).

The advantages of low tech starships is something that the RAW glosses over, but which an experienced Player (and better yet, an experienced Referee) will understand implicitly as an "emergent behavior" of how starships operate and the kind of support they need once they get out of the shipyard and have to "earn their keep" out in the wild.

Or to put it another way ... don't buy anything you can't afford to replace. :cool:
It's true in EVE Online ... and it's true in Traveller ... for a reason.



Experience is a hard teacher.
It gives the examination first and the lesson after. 😖
 
No outside polity would allow weapons and armor to be brought into their countries by non-citizens, and likely no armed merchant ships allowed to dock either. So a lot of these things are only gamisms, and not realistic.
That’s all relative. The prime example for Striker purposes is Balkanized worlds, where there is no one unified planetary authority and the additional complexity of interstellar megacorps with agendas.

Planets disallowing armed ships are likely to go wanting for interstellar freight, particularly C- starports. Not modern world notions, age of sail. Plus mail vault ships are required to be armed to qualify.
 
To be blunt, after hundreds of years, there's no reason that higher TL should not be more prevalent than it is save for societies choosing to not use them. The reason this is not so is simply "because /shrug".

That said, there's so little fundamental difference between TL 9 and TL 15, and if you're going to allow fusion, and jump, and m-drives, and computers, and anti-grav, and every other odd thing, there's no reason to not use the better/cheaper TL-15 versions than the TL-9 versions. No reason to "work through" TL-10, 11, 12, etc. to get to TL-15. Anyone that wants TL-15 tech (in the large, vs weapons of mass destruction) is 2 semesters of online training away from adopting it. The Imperium is not short on teachers, capital, population, or anything else to "slow" adoption.

If your society wants to draw the line at some tech (fusion power for example) and stay "locked in the past", that's fine. You can even go to TL-15 but not adopt, say, life extension, wafer tech, "robots", etc.

But once you adopt something like TL-9, well, "We know what you are, now we're just discussing price." That cat is out of the bag. A jump drive is a jump drive. A better fusion plant isn't going to rock the society. Granted, "we have enough power" is a valid point, but even power plants break down after 1000 years. May as well get a brand new one with WiFi and a 20% off coupon.

According to the Wiki, the year of TL-15 is 1105, yet TM says there's 342 (out of ~9600) Imperium worlds at TL-15. According to the Wiki, TL-14 is at least 100 years old, TL-13 is 500.

Yet, the majority of the Imperium is TL-8 to TL-12.

So, TL-15 managed to explode quite quickly in just a few years.
 
That’s all relative. The prime example for Striker purposes is Balkanized worlds, where there is no one unified planetary authority and the additional complexity of interstellar megacorps with agendas.

Planets disallowing armed ships are likely to go wanting for interstellar freight, particularly C- starports. Not modern world notions, age of sail. Plus mail vault ships are required to be armed to qualify.
Whatever, it doesn't make sense.
 
Actually, the Wiki has two different sets of dates for TL10-15. In one set, it puts TL15 at 1000 rather than 1105. That actually seems much more in line with what we see in terms of Imperial Navy ships. That set sees TL10 at -1776, TL11 at -650, TL12 at -150, TL13 at 300 and TL14 at 700.
 
To be blunt, after hundreds of years, there's no reason that higher TL should not be more prevalent than it is save for societies choosing to not use them. The reason this is not so is simply "because /shrug".

That said, there's so little fundamental difference between TL 9 and TL 15, and if you're going to allow fusion, and jump, and m-drives, and computers, and anti-grav, and every other odd thing, there's no reason to not use the better/cheaper TL-15 versions than the TL-9 versions. No reason to "work through" TL-10, 11, 12, etc. to get to TL-15. Anyone that wants TL-15 tech (in the large, vs weapons of mass destruction) is 2 semesters of online training away from adopting it. The Imperium is not short on teachers, capital, population, or anything else to "slow" adoption.

If your society wants to draw the line at some tech (fusion power for example) and stay "locked in the past", that's fine. You can even go to TL-15 but not adopt, say, life extension, wafer tech, "robots", etc.

But once you adopt something like TL-9, well, "We know what you are, now we're just discussing price." That cat is out of the bag. A jump drive is a jump drive. A better fusion plant isn't going to rock the society. Granted, "we have enough power" is a valid point, but even power plants break down after 1000 years. May as well get a brand new one with WiFi and a 20% off coupon.

According to the Wiki, the year of TL-15 is 1105, yet TM says there's 342 (out of ~9600) Imperium worlds at TL-15. According to the Wiki, TL-14 is at least 100 years old, TL-13 is 500.

Yet, the majority of the Imperium is TL-8 to TL-12.

So, TL-15 managed to explode quite quickly in just a few years.
I look at TL in a cat out of the bag interstellar community as an indicator of economic pull.

Whether that’s resource based extraction, native industry in Pop 7+, willful societal ignorance/control ideology, eco disaster, megacorps oppression to keep operations cheap, or too many people dragging down too little profitable activity, some circumstance goes into a less then optimal TL.

My big example is Nevada during the gold and silver rush, where luxuries and tech hardly seen in NYC or London were routinely shipped to a remote arid mining district.
 
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Whether that’s resource based extraction, native industry in Pop 7+, willful societal ignorance/control ideology, eco disaster, megacorps oppression to keep operations cheap, or too many people dragging down too little profitable activity, some circumstance goes into a less then optimal TL.
A good example of this phenomenon is actually Kinorb/Regina/Spinward Marches.
Not everyone wants to live "20 minutes into the future" (or words to that effect).

 
In Belize, the typical worker earned US$2 per hour (vs US$10 per hour minimum wage in the United States) with a Tariff on some imported items as high as 120%. According to Best Buy, I can have a new iPhone 15 Pro Max in my hand today for $1100 cash (about 110 hours work at minimum wage in the US). If that phone were subject to the 120% tariff, then it would cost US$ 2420 in Belize (about 1210 hours work at minimum wage in Belize). It would require almost 3 weeks pay for the phone in the US and over 30 weeks pay for the same phone in Belize. There are places with a much higher disparity than US:Belize.

I think this would impact the spread of "ubiquitous technology" across an Imperium at the "speed of travel".

Working a simple case where Technology is not an issue ... it is a lot easier to acquire a pistol that fires 0.577 Snyder ammunition than it is to have 0.577 Snyder Ammunition custom fabricated. Can it be done? Sure. Will the ammo cost more than the gun? Probably. [reproduction 4 bore ammo costs more than $100 per round to manufacture.]
 
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