Interstellar Power Projection: Questions

[GLΩAMING]

Hi!
I'm playing around with building a few subsectors, and am wondering what are the limits for power projection for worlds and polities of different sizes. How many parsecs away would an individual world, pocket empire, or Imperium-sized entity be able to make its presence known economically and militarily? What's the minimum population size/industry concentration/tech level that a world would need to begin to form an embryonic pocket empire?
And what parts of a UWP, Interstellar astrography, or societal factors might effect the outcome the most?

 

[TamsinP]

The distance a world can project it's power would depend on two main factors - population, which determines how many people it can field to project that power, and its TL, which will determine the range it can easily control; the two play into each other.

For instance a low pop world with a high TL can probably project power over a similar range to a high pop world with a lower (but still interstellar) TL.

Other factors would be:
Government type - authoritarian governments will be able (and willing) to commit a larger percentage of their population to the effort
Resources - the only industrial world amid a sea of non-industrial worlds will be able to out-produce them and dominate them by being able to cut off their supply; equally the only agricultural world surrounded by non-agricultural worlds can do the same by withholding food shipments.

The Importance Index (Ix) from T5 or MgT2e's World Builder's Handbook would be a reasonable indicator. The Ix value itself would be how far the world can directly project power; it probably has an extended sphere of influence - maybe Ix + (TL -9).

That applies for military and economic power projection.

 

[kilemall]

Not sure what version you are using, but Trillion Credit Squadron is the grandfather product that defines world/polity military budgets, while Pocket Empires does a little more economic power definition and is probably a cranky uncle to some of the T5 stuff.

 

[Spinward Flow]

wondering what are the limits for power projection for worlds and polities of different sizes. How many parsecs away would an individual world, pocket empire, or Imperium-sized entity be able to make its presence known economically and militarily?

Economically, you need to have commercially viable ship designs capable of turning a profit when "making the rounds" away from a home port. The simplest rule of thumb is going to be 12J* for a 12 jumps out/12 jumps back kind of range.

• If you've only got J1, then that's 12 parsecs out and back.
• If you've got J2, then you can manage up to 24 parsecs out and back.
• With J3, you can manage up to 36 parsecs out and back ... although being able to make a profit on J3 gets difficult on passengers and cargo freight alone (but speculative goods trading can become extremely profitable with J3 because of "reach").

Point being that 24-25 jumps per year at a "1 jump per 2 weeks" operational tempo is just about as far as you can go in a single year before needing annual overhaul maintenance. If there's only ONE (singular) place that can be your home port and provide that service, you're kind of "stuck" being tethered to that one location, so how far you can jump in a year (and get back in time for maintenance) pretty much defines the radius of influence for a single world economically (in overly simplified terms).

However, once you have multiple worlds and can start chaining things together, you can start building up links in a much longer chain. You still have a "weakest link" problem when moving passengers and goods along that chain, but so long as different sections can link up together at common points, you can leapfrog your way to larger reach and longer distances of influence. But you need to have those "local centers of economic gravity" to move between to build out your network.

Militarily speaking, it's going to be substantially the same thing ... except you're looking at needing to look at military bases as the logistical support structure. In some ways, however, you may want to think of the military "radius of action/influence" as being reduced relative to the economic radius, simply as a matter of military operations potentially needing more time to complete their mission objectives than a mere "1 week" at the destination. If you're looking at a patrol rotation scenario, you might be looking at 2/3 to 1/2 the radius of action from the nearest military base (so basically up to 6 jumps) rather than the more expansive 12 jumps that a merchant operation would be undertaking. However, military bases can potentially be located more strategically than high tech worlds with type A starports, so the constraints are similar but different.

What's the minimum population size/industry concentration/tech level that a world would need to begin to form an embryonic pocket empire?

Population: 7 minimum (because 6 is Non-industrial), but a more reasonable number would be 8, although 9-A is even better.
Agricultural+Rich worlds would be particularly well suited as the starting point for embryonic pocket empires.
Tech Level: 9 minimum but A makes for a decent starting point (especially if using LBB2 standard drives for starships).

And what parts of a UWP

Homeworld had better have Atmosphere: 5, 6 or 8 for the "cradle of civilization" that colonizes outwards.

Interstellar astrography

Being on a J1 main makes it SO MUCH EASIER to start exploration and expansion @ TL=9-A. By TL=B-C you can build up some pretty sizeable reach in terms of spheres of influence, just with J2-3.

societal factors might effect the outcome the most?

Merchant vs military.
Military might can conquer, but it cannot necessarily BIND a conquest into a hegemony.
The enduring way to build an empire that can hold the center against the centrifuge is going to be through economic trade and cultural ties.

I can even offer proof of these assertions that readers of these forums may recognize.

 

[Condottiere]

Depends.

Besides technological level, existing infrastructure, and economics, it depends on whether you need to project power, and in this case, we'll assume hard power in the form of a naval presence.

Essentially, you're doing it to protect your interests, whatever they are, and you probably have to justify it economically, if not existentially.

After a certain point of space time, you have to set up a semi independent power base, to extend your reach: India was considered the jewel in the crown for the British Empire for any number of reasons, and if they had retained the Colonies, likely the canal in Panama would have been taken over, and Hawaii might have become a protectorate.

In more modern times, it's Singapore, Australia, Philippines, South Korea and Japan at one end, and Europe at the other.

 

[Timerover51]

I view it as a matter of communication lag. Without some form of Faster-than-Light communication, the time lag between sending a message from where an entity is trying to project power and the base that entity is operating from is the decisive factor. Orders two months old from the home base, based on one month back to base and one month back to the front are likely going to be very problematical with respect to the current situation at the front. If there is a 6 month lag, operations are impossible without giving the man on the spot so much authority as to render the supporting base superfluous.

Basically, how far can you Jump in one month?

 

[Condottiere]

You have to remember that when historical writers say that the Captain is the right hand of God (and I think Weber reiterates this), they weren't kidding.

A Royal Navy commander could well start a war, based on the vaguest of instructions from the Admiralty, compared to Lyndon Johnson's boast that the military couldn't bomb an outhouse without his authorization.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I'm playing around with building a few subsectors, and am wondering what are the limits for power projection for worlds and polities of different sizes. How many parsecs away would an individual world, pocket empire, or Imperium-sized entity be able to make its presence known economically and militarily?

Far. Once you have jump technology, you can get quite far, reasonably easily.

The Darrians settled a subsector, and roamed a sector or so from their single planet.

The limit is probably not distance, but someone else's sphere of interest.

What's the minimum population size/industry concentration/tech level that a world would need to begin to form an embryonic pocket empire?

~TL-9: The Jump Drive.

You need the population, economy, and technology to build starships. What that is, is up to you.

Look at what Portugal achieved, say 1450-1550, with modest population...

And what parts of a UWP, Interstellar astrography, or societal factors might effect the outcome the most?

The society must have the will to expand, or at least not to prevent expansion.

There can't be any bigger, badder powers in the vicinity wanting to expand at your cost.

 

[mike wightman]

Military force projection is limited by your supply lines...

 

[Condottiere]

You can live off the land.

Probably how the Vargr manage their raiding logistics.

 

[Timerover51]

Military force projection is limited by your supply lines...

Someone who understands that supplies do not magically appear.

 

[Timerover51]

You can live off the land.

Probably how the Vargr manage their raiding logistics.

Power projection means staying, not simply raiding. Living off of the land worked up to the 1700s. It did not work real well for the British in the US during the Revolution, ask General Burgoyne. Then there was Napoleon in his Spanish Ulcer and 1812 march to Moscow. Read up on the logistic basis of the German invasion of the USSR in Operation Barbarossa, or maybe take a look at some of the US Army histories on Global Logistics in World War 2.

 

[Condottiere]

Depends on what you need, and how often.

Fuel for the fusion reactors is pretty abundant.

Food can be recycled organic matter.

Take over the local industries to manufacture ammunition.

Confiscate refrigerators for spare parts.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Food can be recycled organic matter.

Uh ... please DON'T tell us what you've been eating!

 

[Condottiere]

 

[Enoki]

Power projection is dependent on how much infrastructure the world or world(s) doing it can muster up in support of operations. That means anything up to half of your military budget could be going into support operations and engineering infrastructure to support operations. You might be able to derive part of what you need by looting local resources, and of course, you could operate on a shoestring with less support if you had to but then you end up suffering higher operational losses.

Think of this in terms of the Pacific War and how Japan versus the US supported their operations.

 

[Enoki]

Depends on what you need, and how often.

Fuel for the fusion reactors is pretty abundant.

Food can be recycled organic matter.

Take over the local industries to manufacture ammunition.

Confiscate refrigerators for spare parts.

But, you need to bring in the fusion reactors, food processors, tooling and other equipment, along with materials for utilities and such. Even this much can be a substantial burden if you lack the shipping space or equipment to do it.

For example, something as basic as housing your troops and protecting your supplies from the environment will require sufficient buildings to do both. You then have to provide some sort of utilities, however basic, for those. If the planet were habitable, it would be easier than if it required extensive life support. Either way, you have to provide power, sewer, water, heat and cooling as necessary. Food requires facilities to prepare it, as well as more to store it properly.

Making ammunition locally requires you supply the dies and tooling, and possibly machinery, to make it. Then you need the raw materials and chemicals involved so you have to have those industries available too. Let's say you have to set up on an iron poor planet. Now you need a source of iron to make steel that isn't available locally. Asteroid mining or mining another planet to get it complicates things. The quality of the smelting and production process could be an issue if the local grade is too low to use. It could become cheaper and faster to just haul in what you need than make it locally in such a case.

Stripping the local economy could have disastrous or bad effects on everything. The local population would resent having their 'stuff' confiscated for your use. Or, the local population starts dying off from harsh conditions imposed by the loss of 'stuff' in the economy. You might find you now don't have the manpower to work the infrastructure so it crumbles into disrepair.

On the flip side, if you are flush with cash you provide the troops with an ice cream barge...

 

[Timerover51]

Power projection is dependent on how much infrastructure the world or world(s) doing it can muster up in support of operations. That means anything up to half of your military budget could be going into support operations and engineering infrastructure to support operations. You might be able to derive part of what you need by looting local resources, and of course, you could operate on a shoestring with less support if you had to but then you end up suffering higher operational losses.

Think of this in terms of the Pacific War and how Japan versus the US supported their operations.

The Japanese Army expected their troops to live off of the land, and never really budgeted for logistics. It did not go well for them. The Japanese referred to Guadalcanal as Starvation Island, for good reason. The commander of the Japanese 15th Army, prior to the attack on Imphal in 1944, had his troops learning to eat grass, and viewed all of his supply pack animals, including elephants, as meat on the hoof. Of course, once eaten, they were not very good for carrying supplies.

I hesitate to even call the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters "amateurs", as I would be insulting true amateurs, who do know something about what they are doing.

 

[Condottiere]

It depends on your opposition.

Keeping the initiative, while continuously pressurizing the enemy, could be enough to keep them off balance, and make them withdraw from contact; instead of waiting for supplies to catch up.

And, you can always capture theirs.

 

[Garnfellow]

In T5, owned worlds (Government Type 6) are controlled by the most important world within six parsecs, which makes a handy rule of thumb. It can also create some weird situations if applied indiscriminately.