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Your Fourth Imperium Milieu

robject

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Your Fifth Imperium Milieu

(Sorry, I mean FIFTH Imperium, not FOURTH)... Even if it isn't a true "Imperium".

My vision:
  • Virus evolves
  • Mini-empires form
  • Hybrid, Cosmopolitan States
  • Proto-Imperium forms
  • 1750


Virus evolves, and the non-pathological ones which survive will have to find a way to integrate into interstellar society. What sorts of shapes that may take is an interesting thought problem. Another interesting thought problem is how, like Germanic barbarians becoming Romans, some Virus ally themselves with sophonts.

I think there are backward implications here as well. As we all know, Traveller has flirted with AI from the early years.

As Bill mentioned in another thread, Traveller assumes a kind of invisible pedestrian AI. The kind that cooks meals, keeps rooms clean, automates factories, constructs buildings, starships, and the like. And humans still manage to keep the same motivations (and share the same roles) that they've always had.

And so I think that Virus is just a barbarian AI that evolves into various ecological niches for the sake of long-term survival. And its ecology, unlike most creatures in Traveller, is technology.

Going beyond that, I'd retcon in the presence of various types of intelligent robots that predate Virus. I think that medical research is advanced enough to hook up a brain to a machine, so you've got "robots" even before stable AI. Those robots will be more like characters than equipment. They'll also be highly controversial with varying legal status from place to place -- a hotbed of plotlines served on a platter.




Mini Empires Form - The sectors Behind the Claw, ripped to pieces in 1248, morphs further, coalescing eventually into three major states and several pocket empires. Parts of Gvurrdon are incorporated into these states, and other parts become clients of a Trailing state in former Zhodani territory, but something different happens to the rest of the Vargr Extents this side of Windhorn.

Other states, generally spanning a dozen subsectors, coalesce in various ways throughout Known Space, but with generous buffer zones between them. So I wouldn't want to see an empire filling each old sector, with a hex of boundary around the edges, but rather something more random with significant gaps. Though, the gaps don't necessarily have obvious rhyme or reason, either. Just because a world is a powerhouse doesn't mean it will found an empire, and just because a world is bombed back to the stone age doesn't mean it won't be leading in the future.

For example:

Pretoria is TL9, Starport B in 1105, but now it is a TL17, Starport A garden world, and an independent state, with a large "wilderness" of barbaric worlds on one side, and a pocket empire on another. Shaddukan likewise manages to chart a course as a strong, independent Vilani system, from a very small technical post on a pitiful hellworld on the Xboat route in 1105 to a vast belt-oriented industrial and commercial powerhouse on the only economically viable route between Spiwnard and Trailing space.

Regina lost ground and gained ground, ending up with a state spanning six subsectors, including some Vargr territory.

Deneb Sector split along natural boundaries, with wilderness Vilanic territory to coreward, a pocket empire around Magash, and a larger one gerrymandering along the old rimward Xboat routes.




Hybrid, Cosmopolitan States - Border states arise which blend Humaniti with portions of the Vargr Extents, extending a principle that was foreshadowed in the Rebellion-era chaos -- as the Vargr move in to dominate regions, other sophont populations are not necessarily displaced. Deneb, Corridor, and Vland, overrun and plundered by Vargr warlords, becomes administered by client sophonts -- more often than not these are Vilani, who have vast experience in managing and organizing cosmopolitan peoples and places. The more or less successful results of this sort of mixing are the Border States. The most successful are one in Corridor/Provence, and one in Vland/Windhorn, both retaining Vilanic administrative forms with Vargrate strength.




The Proto-Imperium Forms - The Ziru Sirka fails to re-emerge, instead manifesting in the form of three empires ruled by one Bureau each. The three intersect uneasily in neutral territory in their midst, on Shaddukan, the only surviving low-jump link between the Sharurshid Commonwealth (most of Corridor and lower Provence sectors, capital Kaasu/Corridor 1209), the Naasirka Commonwealth (centered on Vland), and the Makhidkarun Commonwealth (coreward of the Naasirka worlds, capital on Gemid/Vland 1903). Somehow these three states are coordinated and managed, but retain autonomy... of a sort.

How Shaddukan managed to be just about the only way to cross from Corridor/Provence to Vland/Windhorn without stopping at a supported calibration point -- or how the other worlds lost nearly all their water and hydrogen resources -- is beyond anyone's guess. Scouts have managed to refuel in Oort clouds (but not the Kuiper belts, which were apparently also swept clean), and the military has its calibration points, so there are non-standard options, but there's only one reliable and economic option.

That yields a Proto-Imperium. It's the crossroads of commerce, politics, and culture, with a strong, modified Vilani influence.




1750. Adding 500 years to the timeline allows flexibility to set borders as desired. It allows old problems to take on new dimensions. It also allows a higher TL setting. Industry is strong in the old Domain of Deneb, but many states have largely caught up.

TL18 is the maximum technology, with many of these empires possessing it or trading in it. TL16 technology and ships are more commonplace than TL15 was during the Third Imperium. Typical local-range entry-level merchants and traders are TL13, but there's nothing stopping the wealthy character from having a TL18 ship built.
 
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IMTU

Sandman sacrifices itself to become a weapon to destroy the Black Imperium, but not before it's offspring are guaranteed sophont rights by the RC.

[Long story short - the crime the Star Vikings commit is to seed the weaponised sandman within the Black Imperium causing more casualties than could be imagined, for while the stereotypical view of the BI is a cyborg hell hole in fact Lucan preserved a lot of his population base in an almost typical 3rd Imperial realm.]

Post BI the RC evolves into a democratic pocket empire while the Regency eventually falls to internal strife and the effects of the Empress Wave.

[Another aside - IMTU Grandfather created the jump drive by detonating a device that spreads a jump interface bubble at the speed of light that brings the psionic dimensions to within easy technological reach.

The Empress wave is a similar device that a high tech race on the other side of the galaxy detonated millenia ago. It's the interference between these two 'bubbles' that gives rise to the Empress wave effects. I haven't actually decided if Grandfather helps sort out the problem or just allows for nature to take its course. Jump travel is decidedly dodgy at the wavefront, but once the wave has passed 'almost normal' jump travel again becomes possible.]

The Hiver research into Virus, the Regency covert Viral program, and the RC children of Sandman all allow for the development of anti-Viral countermeasures that wipe out nearly all of the remaining wild strains as they are encounterd.

IMTU the pocket empires that spring up in 1248 are all pushed back several centuries and I have yet to have a 4th Imperium arise.
 
[...] Black Imperium [...]

Traveller Wikia is my friend... oooh creepy!

Sandman [...]

Can't find this one there... found a reference on comstar's forum tho, along with the term "Peacemaker". Recognized as sentient etc.

Post BI the RC evolves into a democratic pocket empire while the Regency eventually falls to internal strife and the effects of the Empress Wave.

Similar to 1248?

[Another aside - IMTU Grandfather created the jump drive by [...]

The Empress wave is a similar device that a high tech race on the other side of the galaxy detonated millenia ago. It's the interference between these two 'bubbles' that gives rise to the Empress wave effects. [...]

Interesting. My take is strangely similar at one point: jumpspace was created by Yaskoydray "infecting" a star with a peculiar characteristic, which propagated to nearby stars exponentially until the galaxy was "linked".
 
Sandman is the Viral NPC the players get to 'rescue' during the adventure in Vampire Fleets.
Yes, the fate of the RC and Regency are almost the same as presented in 1248.
 
My take was the Empire of Solee ravish the Reformation Coalition but when confronted with the Scouts from the Regency they find that they must adopt many of the RC ways to avoid just becoming an Imperial vassal. This leads to an alliance with the Guild and Vampires seem to begin to a fluxuating life cycle, as suddenly the Black Imperium begins to spew out all sorts of cybernetic nasties as the curtain begins to expand. Much of what follows takes its cue from MJD and others. However, the Dominate is not content to lay down once Capital is taken and retaken...it mutuates into different strains and viri (subviruses) that infect the Victors. The Fourth Imperium collapses from being a beacon of hope into an Interstellar despotism surrounded by similar but different despotisms. Only among the Awakened (those "touched" by the Empress Wave) is there hope who are fighting a battle to bring ideas of freedom back to the wrecked Galaxy.
 
As much as I loved romping and roaming about the Marches, I'm one of these "What's going on back at Earth?" kind of guys.

Pulling from my other post on the other thread, I'm interested in seeing the Droyne get their act together and become something to contend with. Right now they just seem like near-pushovers.

No "mega-enemies". No "We are the Borg" or here comes super-race X to give everyone a bad time, and watch the old 3I and its neighbors form a heroic coalition to all but vanquish the New Boys on the block, who will capitulate at the last moment when they're on the ropes, and form a pocket empire like everyone else. Then in a few years time we can all whine and groan about why they failed, and so forth :)

None of that!

Traveller makes an attempt to stay as much to hard science as possible, and side step (or outright exclude) the more fantastic offerings in science-fiction. Hopefully personal efforts from various authors to write modules will help alleviate that some.

In terms of interstellar politics, I'm curious why the Zhodani had such a hard with Virus. But I guess they did, for whatever reason. It'd be interesting to see what kind of "reforms" that imposed on their highly controlled society.

It'd also be interesting to see what kind of power fracture has taken place in the old Solomani Confederation. I can picture a North-South, or Nato-Warsaw Pact dynamic shaping up there. But that's just me.

Some new tech, some new weapons, some newer societies. Are the K'Kree still braying about the injustices of protein eating types, or has their descendence into the Y2K-Empress thingy given them a new perspective on things?

New settings don't bother me, but let's some new capabilities and dynamics to it as well :)
 
Just a note, that the 4th Imperium is in 1248. This would be the 5th Imperium setting.

I agree that Virus has to evolve, and intergrate with the rest of the sophants. I would think limiting it's ability to just "copy" itself into thousands of computers is something that would need to be addressed. My initial thoughts on this are in the other thread, but run along similar lines as yours.

Behind the Claw is where all the trade and technology will be as it wasn't devistated by Virus, so this is the place to have all the pocket empires and competing states.

Any Impirium has to be based around the Vilani IMO so I can see why a version of a proto impurim as you sugest would work. You have to deal with the Vargr though as you're putting it in "their" space as such.

If you want to go for TL17 I would think you would need a large Empire to do it, and all the Tech is behind the Claw. Mora TL16, Depot (Deneb) TL16, Vincennes TL16, Pashus TL16, and Darrian TL16. Out of them an empire based around Vincennes is your best bet for a TL17 sociaty.

Regards,

Ewan
 
Just a note, that the 4th Imperium is in 1248. This would be the 5th Imperium setting.

OOOPS! Sorry about that everyone.

Any Impirium has to be based around the Vilani IMO so I can see why a version of a proto impurim as you sugest would work. You have to deal with the Vargr though as you're putting it in "their" space as such.

Thus putting a new spin on "Vilani & Vargr"... I've edited my first post accordingly.

If you want to go for TL17 I would think you would need a large Empire to do it, and all the Tech is behind the Claw. Mora TL16, Depot (Deneb) TL16, Vincennes TL16, Pashus TL16, and Darrian TL16. Out of them an empire based around Vincennes is your best bet for a TL17 society.

I understand your point. I'm hoping that 400 years is long enough to reestablish industry, and that beyond a certain point "size doesn't matter", but you've given me some things to think about.
 
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[Another aside - IMTU Grandfather created the jump drive by detonating a device that spreads a jump interface bubble at the speed of light that brings the psionic dimensions to within easy technological reach.

The Empress wave is a similar device that a high tech race on the other side of the galaxy detonated millenia ago. It's the interference between these two 'bubbles' that gives rise to the Empress wave effects. I haven't actually decided if Grandfather helps sort out the problem or just allows for nature to take its course. Jump travel is decidedly dodgy at the wavefront, but once the wave has passed 'almost normal' jump travel again becomes possible.

Well......this is a bit OT, but I like this, because by making jumpspace an artifact, and a psionic related one at that, some off the odd limits of jumping can be handled.

Why a discreet number of jump effects (6 or 9, or any real n) ? Because that's how it was made, or represents the superscience limit of altering the parametrs of real=space or jumpspace -(that was a good as he could do). Essentially, we apes have found the transit system, and it has design specific parameters.

Why no jump torpedoes ? Well, it takes a sentient mind to have psionics, and that is required to pick the correct jump parametrs from the set that can be computed.
Thus, one can model J-navigation as a semi-psionic minor discipline, perhaps. Without a navigator, or a sentient AI it's either a severe crapshoot or a guaranteed failure. (I add in the AI bit to explain Virus.)
 
I understand your point. I'm hoping that 400 years is long enough to reestablish industry, and that beyond a certain point "size doesn't matter", but you've given me some things to think about.

400 years isn't enough for the Vilani :) Also they had a war with the Regancy, and got decimated by the Black Imperium

Also Mora dropped it's TL to 15 in 1248, however there are a bunch of TL16 worlds in the League of Deneb. This will be your best bet for a TL17 sociaty, and with such a tech advantage they may be the next Proto-Imperium.

I still like Bill's no jump after the wave, because it gives us settings that haven't been explored before in the OTU, however as Traveller is about Travelling I can see that if that path was followed the future setting would have to be some time after the no jump from the Wave had passed.

Best Regards,

Ewan
 
More blatherings....

So what was the deal with Virus and AI in general ?

Well, I like the virus reaching sigularity idea (thanks Whipsnade). I also like the idea in some SF stories (I first found it in a poul anderson story) that all AIs eventually ascend or stop responding , and the time to failure is directly related to their capabilities.

I'd argue that AI never developed its potential in the TU because of that limitation; the best that could be done was a bit smarter than human, and that at great cost and time. essentially, one could replicate a smart human brain, and then teach it up from there -for about as long as a humanwould take -which are cheaper and more fun to produce. Faster teaching and or processing speed and intelligence hit the singularity barrier, and run into the shutdown problem. At which point they become expensive doorstops.


Virus was created by a combination of tech intervention upon a naturally evolved platform (the cymbeline chips) ; given a shutdown barrier, its clear that the cymbeline chips don't use the full potential processing speed due to evolutionary constraints - the really fast chips ascended and didn't carry on, so the limited ones survived and produced the next generation. But they would be very good at getting the maximum out of an AI without going over the limit.

Also, the subsequent technologisation of the viral AI would have needed and enforced such limits, too: a transponder that turns itself off isn't really a good thing, after all, nor is weapon that duds unpredicably.

Thus, Virus, being artifically jumpstarted and with evolved limits, was tremendously more resistant to the failure effect than a pure AI, and in fact may have been released in some strains already past the limit; but, as they developed and competed in a real environment, the sub critical ones tend to lose and/or be assimilated by better ones, or even the singularity bound ones. So, eventually most lineages will pass the limit and start turning off -smartest first, too, and with increasing speed - which can be whatever we need to deal with the setting. The ones left behind would be ones that were neither competitive or accumulative -the slow loners of the Virus family.

Thoughts ?
 
I still like Bill's no jump after the wave...


Ewan,

Thanks. It's something I've thought was part of the Wave for quite sometime and it's something that I believe M:1248 got wrong. Let me explain.

About fifteen seconds after the TNE Core Book was released and the Wave's precursor effects on the Zhodani Consulate became known, someone on the TML asked a deceptively simple question:

Why haven't the Zhodani known about the Wave for centuries?

The Wave originated near the Core and the Zhos have been exploring their multi-sector long Core Route for thousands of years. The expeditions should have run into the Wave and it's effects centuries or millennia ago and sent a warning back to the Consulate. Yet, we still see the Consulate starting to unravel in a late MT TNS news report and beginning to implode in TNE's Regency Sourcebook. The Wave moves at or near light speed and the Zhodani have a faster-than-light drive, so why was there no warning?

I thought the simplest "explanation" for this lack of warning was that the Wave adversely effected jump space and, by extension, jump drives. There was no warning because no ship could jump away with that warning.

When Dave Nilsen kindly responded to questions here several years ago and wrote about the psionics/jump space linkage GDW had only begun to plan on exploring, I thought having the Wave, which already had known psionic effects, also effect jump space was even more of a "no-brainer".

I also wanted the Wave to clear Charted Space more rapidly than a purely light-speed phenomena could, so I flipped the manner in which tsunamis change speed as they reach shore. The Wave moved at light-speed when crossing empty parsecs. However, when it contacted minds, sentient minds, and especially psionic sentient minds, it sped up.


Regards,
Bill
 
1750. Adding 500 years to the timeline allows flexibility to set borders as desired. It allows old problems to take on new dimensions. It also allows a higher TL setting. Industry is strong in the old Domain of Deneb, but many states have largely caught up.

TL18 is the maximum technology, with many of these empires possessing it or trading in it. TL16 technology and ships are more commonplace than TL15 was during the Third Imperium. Typical local-range entry-level merchants and traders are TL13, but there's nothing stopping the wealthy character from having a TL18 ship built.

Blimy! TL18 already! That would have to be in Deneb, in a large Empire (sector sized at minimum I would say) with far more homoganised TLs than is usual in the OTU, and is present in 1248.

TL17 will be done by Vincennes and the League of Deneb, TL18 will be the a tough climb! In the League of Deneb these are the Systems that matter (for TL18):

1122 Vincennes A899AA6-G S Hi In Cp 11 3 De K7V M7V G1V
1128 Dekha A10099A-G A Va Na Hi In 810 De F3V M6V
1417 Starn A000996-G A As Na Hi In Rs 722 De M0V
1925 Deneb A537ADD-E N Hi Cx V0 510 De A2 I
1633 Pikha A738A86-E N Hi Cp 212 De K7V
0316 Magash A400956-E S Va Na Hi In Cp 924 De K7 III F8V
0917 Kubishush A8B69AA-E Fl Hi 901 De M3V M8V
1016 Liiri A542998-E N Po Hi In Cp 901 De K8V M4V

And they are split TL16 and TL14. These are the Also rans (High tech, no pop)

1613 Depot A100568-G D Va Na Ni Mr 120 De F9 II
1226 Bishop B201553-F S Va Ic Ni 724 De M6 II
1609 Ansirk A100458-F N Va Ni Lo A722 De F2V
1623 HRD A401775-F N Va Ic Na 210 De M5 III

There is potential to bring in other small states around the boarders that would bolster the LoD High Tech High Pop base, but Vincennes, Dekha and Starn will be the core that could create your TL18 sociaty. I think TL18 might be pushing it, because there just doesn't seem to be enough High Tech High Pop worlds. A more homoganised TL17 in LoD would be a more likley bet.

Regards,

Ewan
 
Behind the Claw is where all the trade and technology will be as it wasn't devistated by Virus, so this is the place to have all the pocket empires and competing states.

I can see a lot of Virus-infested worlds around the RC and Sufren getting liberated and/or re-set by Sandman's children:

Promise, Gresham, Possin, and Darianne seem to be worlds that could benefit from such actions near the RC.
 
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