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Newbie curious about why Zhodani Consolate and Imperial forces are opposed

Newbie here intends to operate in the 'Bowman Arm' area of District 268 and so knowing the history of the antagonism between Zhodani and Imperial forces not overly important...but it is of interest. So my question to this forum is regarding the reasons why they are opposed to each other. Perhaps there is a link to a good article or two that could be shared??? Or just a thumbnail explanation is also good.... Thank you.
 
Well, according the Spinward Marches Campaign, the confrontation has mostly historical reasons, as well as too different views of the life to understand each other.

To make it short, they see each other as threat.
 
Long ago, before the Psionic Suppression, they weren't.

The Imperium had a lot of psi research facilities, schools, and places where you could get tested for next to nothing.
It became very stylish for nobles to investigate this new science, a lot like how the Victorians were into "mediums" and "seances" and such for a while.
Then, there was a scandal involving a noble was supporting a very pro-psionics position at court, and as the scandal unfolded, it turned out that the guy had a Zho "psionics teacher" in his household. As more investigation came out, they found more and more of the psionics schools were Zho funded, and the conclusion was the Zho were doing a Hiver-style takeover of the Imperium. A gentle nudge here, a little suggestion there, and eventually the Imperium would have been a seperate polity in name only.
Several of the nobles who had their hand in the cookie jar claimed "It's not my fault! I was psionically manipulated!!" and the Suppression laws came down hard.
 
The Zhodani didn't want the Imperium expanding right up to its borders.

Had the Zhodani had any interest in claiming the worlds of the Spinward Marches they could have done so during the Long Night.

There is also a fundamental difference between the tow cultures. The Imperium is populated by dishonest grifters, while the Zhodani value honesty.
 
There is also a fundamental difference between the tow cultures. The Imperium is populated by dishonest grifters, while the Zhodani value honesty.

Zhodani value honesty like fish value water: they don't have a choice. When the Thought Police are everywhere, it's not that it's a moral decision to be honest, it's that there's not really another option
 
These are all great replies so far...please keep them coming....and the Spinward Marches inhabitants are somewhat in the middle not necessarily siding with one side or the other..but officially leaning towards the Imperial side and Emperor Strephon?
 
ZC is psionic and focused on preserving itself
TI (especially when they came into contact) is expansionist and has an “independence” tendency (worlds govern themselves, Solomani influences).

Each of them saw the other as a potential existential threat. And the hostility basically solved that problem
(Frontier Wars discouraged the TI from expanding….and adding the Psionics Suppressions gave enough mutual dislike to the respective populations/ prevented trade and contact so that neither really undermines the others position.
 
From an Out-of-Universe (writers') perspective, the Zhodani are the USSR to the NATO of the Third Imperium -- this game was written during the Cold War, which explains this framing.. Aslan are China, Vargr are the Non-Aligned nations and perhaps the Global South as well (but don't read too much into that last point).

In other words, they were written that way.

And, assigning them the traits of "psionic culture but also adversary" helped justify making psionics difficult for player characters to obtain and to use openly.

That said, there's a long and rich tradition of canonical unreliable narrators. What you see written about them is usually from an Imperial perspective, and thus likely biased.
 
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Long ago, before the Psionic Suppression, they weren't.

Well, having already fought two Frontier Wars I would not say they were precisely in good terms before the Psionic Supressions... I see the supressions more as a consequence of this hostility than as a cause for it.

According some sources (among them MT:IE) the Imperium saw the Psionic Institutes (at least some of them) being used by the Zhodani to form a "Fifth Column" inside the Imperium for a planed war, and that the Psionic Supressions (using scandals that were, at least in part, staged by Imperial Intelligence) averted this war (or better said, posponed it until the 979, when the Third Frontier War began).

How can we be the Space Good-guys without Space Bad-guys?

But who are the Space Good-guys and who the Space Bad-guys?

The answer depends on whose side you are in:

The Imperium is populated by dishonest grifters, while the Zhodani value honesty.
Zhodani answer...
Zhodani value honesty like fish value water: they don't have a choice. When the Thought Police are everywhere, it's not that it's a moral decision to be honest, it's that there's not really another option
Imperial answer...
There is also a fundamental difference between the tow cultures.
(I guess you meant "the two cultures", not "the tow cultures")
Probable right answer. They are too different to understand each other, and instead of trying they just misstrust each other

And, assigning them the traits of "psionic culture but also adversary" helped justify making psionics difficult for player characters to obtain and to use openly.

Probable metagaming answer: a way to limit the psionics when playing inside the 3I
 
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Brainz ...
 
These are all great replies so far...please keep them coming....and the Spinward Marches inhabitants are somewhat in the middle not necessarily siding with one side or the other..but officially leaning towards the Imperial side and Emperor Strephon?
In the early adventures the general population of the Spnward Marches were against greater Imperial oversight of their worlds, there was even a freedom fighter network called the Ine Givar.
 
Don’t forget the part where the Psionic Suppressions were an attempt to use psychohistory tech to implant a mild aversion to psi powers. Instead it rampaged into a jihad that forces even Imperial agent and military psionic abilities underground.

And where there is manipulation, can the Hivers’ meddling tentacles be far behind? Nest prank, a bid for glory or a millennial manipulation? <purely my speculation not published material but it fits>
 
That's not actually how it works. But I see you agree with Imperial propaganda :)
I think it’s more cultural conditioning. When Zhodani children are learning to lie their schools Intendant picks that up and
1. effectively lets them know that won’t work (ie they get caught)
2. helps adjust their attitude about what led to the lie in the first place (embarrassed by something / feeling antisocial / etc)
 
One of the fundamental differences between the Third Imperium and the Zhodani Consulate boils down to ... Hereditary Aristocracy vs Individual Meritocracy ... if you can believe that.

Think about it. 🤔



In the Third Imperium, what is required to become an imperial noble at the top of society?
Short Answer: Social Standing.
Slightly Longer Answer: Hereditary Social Standing ... meaning that you need to "choose your parents wisely" (or words to that effect), in order to be "born on third base" before scoring a home run (essentially).

Every member world of the Third Imperium needs a Knight (in post) to represent that world in subsector/sector/domain/imperial politics, but as you advance up the Social Standing ladder, there are fewer and fewer postings at the rank of Baron, Count, etc. all the way up to Duke ... so as your Social Standing rises, the "club" gets more and more exclusive simply because there are fewer and fewer positions to go around, yielding an essentially feudal hierarchy that calcifies over time into a hereditary aristocracy (your children are born at -1 Social Standing to their parent(s)). So while there is SOME social mobility possible through individual merits and achievements, truly "joining the club of aristocracy" is the work of generations, not necessarily of individuals.

So although there is a limited amount of "churn" in the ranks of the imperial nobility, there is enough "friction" involved to put a lot of emphasis and advantage on incumbency ... which then results in family dynasties of aristocratic privilege that are able to perpetuate their wealth and power relatively easily, compared to an "upstart challenger" who has raised their Social Standing through their own actions during their own lifetime. Remember, being posted somewhere as an imperial NOBLE is a Career Choice(!) ... not just a matter of merely buffing your Social Standing stat (which makes you an "honorary noble" rather than one posted to a position of responsibility representing the Emperor to specific worlds as a vassal to the Third Imperium). This then helps with stability by preventing too much turnover (churn) within a single generation and protects the incumbency of particular families and dynasties that can accumulate wealth and power unto themselves (and all the corruption of purpose that implies).



Compare that to the Zhodani Consulate. What is required to become an Intendant at the top of society?
Short Answer: Psionic Power.
Slightly Longer Answer: Because psionic power is NOT hereditary(!) ... the most privileged in society CAN BE ANYONE FROM ANY FAMILY ... they just need to be psionically gifted and powerful.

This means that the "upper crust" of Zhodani society has a TREMENDOUS amount of "churn" in the ranks, effectively preventing the sort of dynastic hereditary strategy of accumulating wealth and power with each succeeding generation that is so common as to be expected (and widely accepted!) in Imperial society. Social privileges are conferred upon the "worthy" (measured individually) rather than upon the "hereditary" (who were your parents?). It's a meritocratic rather than a dynastic system, which privileges the importance of psionic power and skills.

"A sound soul dwells within a sound mind and a sound body."




Can you see how foundational and fundamentally at odds such concepts of societal organization are?

There IS NO WAY to reconcile the underlying structures of these radically different ideals of hierarchy and merit.

Of course the two cultures would clash and be at odds with each other ... even before adding in the wildcard of competitive advantage that psionics training brings to the table, such that a (so called) "level playing field" between the two parties isn't even meaningfully an option in high level negotiations.

They are too different to understand each other, and instead of trying they just mistrust each other.
THIS.
And thus the pattern was set for centuries of hostilities over successive generations, due to irreconcilable differences of ideas about individual merit vs heredity privilege.
 
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