[T5Stuff] Strangeform Non-Vehicle Robots

[robject]

The robots chapter is for building sophontiform robots. But what if you want a Zhodani Warbot?

Strangeform. Some robot designers have cast off the constraints of imitation and constructed robots whose form is dictated by their function. Strangeform robot vehicles look like vehicles; strangeform robot construction equipment looks like construction equipment. Strangeform warbots look like tanks or artillery.

QUICKBUILDING STRANGEFORM ROBOTS. Since a strangeform robot emphasizes function over form, it is essentially a vehicle or (mobile) device with a brain. To create one, select a vehicle and in it install a brain.

I think this is a needlessly narrow guideline. Consider that a piece of artillery, or a mobile device, or even a suit of armor, is not a vehicle. So what? So then, we need a way to take devices and add things to them.

Think of a Zhodani Warbot. What is it? Primarily, a set of guns, a brain, sensors, and a lift module. We can build the guns. We can add a brain. We can add a lift module or grav belt. At the end of the process you can take its mass, estimate a volume, and put a metal container around it. But is that kosher?

No idea.

Experiment #1

Let's pretend that a Zhodani Warbot is built around a primary weapon -- a TL14 fusion gun, for example. That's an easy place to start.

Code        Name                      Damage and Hits      Mass  R Bu     Cost 
----------- ------------------------- -------------------- ----- - -- -------- 
ImFGMP-14   Fusion Gun Man Portable   (11) Pen-7 Burn-4    20.7  4 -1   KCr 33

Now what? Well, let's add a positronic brain with an INT of 7 (p.565). That's going to be 2 Liters and 3 kg (p.563), and cost KCr 140. While we're at it, let's add sensors (p.566). Vision 16, greyscale, KCr160; Hearing 16, simple, KCr160.

Next, let's add a grav belt (p.613): 25 kg, KCr100.

Back to the Robots chapter, let's give it a Double Armor skin (p.568): KCr15, 2 liters = 3 kg.

Results:

Zhodani Warbot analog, more or less

Positronic Brain (INT 7). 
Vision-16 grey
Hearing-16 simple
Weapon: ImFGMP-14 (Pen-7 Burn-4)
Gravitic lift (max speed=4)
51.7 kg
KCr 608

I calculated max speed by taking the grav belt's limitations (carries up to 200kg), assumed the limitation applied to Speed=1, and applied that relationship to the mass of the robot.

 

[HG_B]

Think of a Zhodani Warbot. What is it? Primarily, a set of guns, a brain, sensors, and a lift module. We can build the guns. We can add a brain. We can add a lift module or grav belt. At the end of the process you can take its mass, estimate a volume, and put a metal container around it. But is that kosher?

No idea.

It would be stupid if it wasn't kosher as that is how robots are really built.

 

[Reban]

You can use Thingmaker to design any sort of container (read hull or body). There are plenty of motive options in the Robots chapter, or you can work something out from VehicleMaker. Add the Brain and add the peripherals (weapons, tools, sensors, great big bulls eye).

the only thing that requires a bit of extra thought is the mass and both Robots and Thingmaker have ways of calculating that based on the know volume and the construction materials. Just pick a material with a reasonable density.

• VehicleMaker is a good guide for robots of 1ton displacement or more.
• ThingMaker is a good guide for robot things under 1ton displacement.
• Robots designed to have the same form as a sophont (or beast?) can be design straight from the chapter.

The operative word there is "Guide". If you start out with a good image in your head of what the robot looks like and its purpose you should be able to use the tools in the book to produce good stats. Will it be under or over volume and mass, who knows unless you build a real Warbot?

 

[robject]

Well, that's the thing, isn't it? The Robots chapter is about a specific subclass of robot -- androids, really. Sophontiforms. Mostly.

Look how many pages I needed to know about to build a potential Warbot.

Volume-to-mass conversion for robots (p.563).
Robot Brains and Senses (p.565-566).
Robot Armor (p.568).
Gravitics (from the Equipment List) (p.613).

And there's no data about calculating speed for gravitics. I just sort of made it up. Am I wrong? Is the result abusable? I think "probably" -- consider a grav belt with a positronic brain and senses. It masses 28 kg, and therefore can move at:

Speed = 200 kg / 28 kg = 7

Speed 7 is pretty dang fast.

Well, maybe it's not too bad. I guess that would be a courier bot, eh?

 

[robject]

I've only now started to try to 'gin up a warbot that's not made from VehicleMaker, so I don't have a really good feel for this sort of process. VehicleMaker was my crutch (and a very handy one it is, too).

I think what is needed is a list of robot designs from Traveller sources. For example, the Zhodani Warbot.

What other robots would be helpful and useful to have ported over?

 

[Murdoc]

When I tried before in beta, I tried the Zho warbot (med), Hiver Bruiser, and AB-101. Of course, I only tried to use the rules as written, not coble together something from all over the place. Not a criticism mind you, that was a clever way to get close to the warbot. But I'm still hoping for the "Surrat" method to be published one day to make proper "strangeforms". Perhaps in a "Cybertech" book with rules for cybernetics and cyberspace.

 

[arentol]

As a former 13E I take exception to your claim artillery is not a vehicle. It most definitely is, at least much of the time. Moving on....

The Zhodani Warbot was a bad choice for this because it arguably is Sophontiform. It has a torso, head, two arms, and the legs are replaced with a Mobile Lifter. All this falls well within the Sophontiform robot construction system. Only the weapon itself doesn't entirely fit, but you could certainly explain it away as a permanent attachment to one arm.

Also keep in mind that on page 563, in regard to Strangeforms, it says:

"The final design may or may not be similar to an existing sophont."

In other words, there is no rule that says that Strangeforms MUST look like vehicles. You are reading WAY too much into page 561.

Not to mention, even without page 563, you could still use the sophontiform rules to make almost any robot design you like because Sophonts look like whatever you want and therefore Sophontiform robots can look like whatever you want. So the only thing I can imagine not really being able to use the Sophontiform rules for is.... Robotic Vehicles (like a fighter jet that is a robot, so an actual vehicle).

For instance, R2D2 (body only), which is not humanoid, but is still sophontiform:
Skeleton = Standard Exterior Shell
Muscles = Standard
Limb Sizes = VSmall Arm, VSmall Antennae, 2xSlightly Smaller Legs, 1x Quite Small Leg
Manipulators = 1 Dexterous Grasper


All that being said, if you still insist that you can't, or shouldn't, use the Sophontiform rules for a Zhodani Warbot (presumably because those don't include rules for putting a gun in the torso of the robot) then there is a better solution:

Make a vehicle. Type = Military Vehicle, Mission = Recon, Motive = Grav, Bulk = Vlight, Stage = Advanced, Environ = Protected, Endurance = Days. Describe it as looking like the Zhodani Warbot with the FGMP you mentioned earlier installed in the weapons mount that comes with a military vehicle. Add in the robot parts like Brain, arms, and manipulators (which add 1.5kg per unit to the total weight), and you are done. And don't worry about how large tanks are, the final total weight of this vehicle before adding the Robot Parts and FGMP is 0 so it can fit in a 1.5m^3 space, which is just about dead-on for a Zhodani Warbot.

And if you read the above and say that you can't just add arms to a vehicle robot.... I got you covered for that too. Page 568 - Connector Baseplate. This allows you to add a Sophontiform upper body to a Strangeform lower body or to a vehicle. So you can define the lower body as either of those and it still works well within the rules, and makes much more sense than using a grav-belt.

 

[Murdoc]

So your saying that for most robots then you have to design a sophont first, then a robot around it? That seems rather clunky to me. And that still doesn't address why does a robot need C3 anyway (unless it has an organic brain of course)? Or that the senses cost an outrageous amount. Or that intelligence is random, even in electronic brains. Or that education is so limited. Or that limb size has nothing to do with its characteristics, or price. Like Rob said, these rules were made for making robots pattered around sophonts, and I'm sure with an eye towards playing them as PCs are par with natural PCs. It's pretty limited.

As for doing the Zho WB as a vehicle, do we just ignore its final weight and volume then, or make it up? And how exactly do you put arms on it, from the Robots section? So we still have to make up a sophont to pattern the arms on, or do we just choose their strength and size? And the price isn't anywhere near what it used to be, close to a MCr now. And what if I want to put more armor on it (checking with UpArmored), oops! Now it's 1 ton in volume again!

I suppose if this level of quick and dirty (although not so quick really) is ok for you then, great, you really can do whatever you want with these rules. Power to you. What I am saying is that compared to other systems (including Traveller ones), they could have done far, far better. I mean, look at the level of fidelity to canon designs we use for comparing ship design rules, by those standards these robot design rules are totally inadequate.

 

[robject]

I think he's just pointing out to me that the Zhodani Medium Warbot is, in fact, sophontiform -- and he's right.

And, the Zhodani Heavy Warbot is pretty much a Vehicle.

Where I get tripped up is with the Zhodani Light Warbot, which is too small for a Vehicle, and not sophontiform -- or if it is, then it's just a head, no torso, no limbs!

 

[arentol]

So your saying that for most robots then you have to design a sophont first, then a robot around it?

No, you don't have to define the sophont first, or at all. I am basically saying that for those people who think these rules restrict you to humaniform and vehicle robots only (despite my point that it says you can make strangeforms that look like anything you want), they don't.... Even if you think you are restricted, you can rules-lawyer your way out of that restriction simply by remembering that the sophont creation rules let you make almost anything you want, and therefore the sophontiform robot rules let you make anything you want. There is no need to make the sophont to do so though, only imagine what it might look like and what kind of manipulators and such it might have.

As for doing the Zho WB as a vehicle, do we just ignore its final weight and volume then, or make it up?

I addressed this. The final weight before adding the gun and robot parts was 0 and final volume was therefore technically 0 as well. So I used the smallest size given, 0.25 tons and volume of 1.5m^3, thought technically you could validly define it even smaller.

And how exactly do you put arms on it, from the Robots section? So we still have to make up a sophont to pattern the arms on, or do we just choose their strength and size? And the price isn't anywhere near what it used to be, close to a MCr now. And what if I want to put more armor on it (checking with UpArmored), oops! Now it's 1 ton in volume again!

Personally I think you should just use the Sophontiform rules anyway, so this is really moot. However, I already explained how you could add a Sophontiform upper torso to the grav-vehicle with a Connector Baseplate.

I suppose if this level of quick and dirty (although not so quick really) is ok for you then, great, you really can do whatever you want with these rules. Power to you. What I am saying is that compared to other systems (including Traveller ones), they could have done far, far better. I mean, look at the level of fidelity to canon designs we use for comparing ship design rules, by those standards these robot design rules are totally inadequate.

The robot rules are poorly done, but they are enough to get the job done in almost all cases. Besides, these are about the last rules on my list to get fixed. I would much rather see the combat and injury rules fixed since they are so bad that the game is literally unplayable without making up your own rules.

 

[Murdoc]

No, you don't have to define the sophont first, or at all. I am basically saying that for those people who think these rules restrict you to humaniform and vehicle robots only (despite my point that it says you can make strangeforms that look like anything you want), they don't.... Even if you think you are restricted, you can rules-lawyer your way out of that restriction simply by remembering that the sophont creation rules let you make almost anything you want, and therefore the sophontiform robot rules let you make anything you want. There is no need to make the sophont to do so though, only imagine what it might look like and what kind of manipulators and such it might have.

I think you do have to. Looking at the design checklist on page 563 it says: "1. Select Sophont Pattern." So if you don't already have one, it needs to be made (although I'm sure you can skip the bits about caste, gender, etc. and just concentrate on body form). But, even if we assume you are right, and you can ignore this step, how does one figure out what the characteristics of the robot are? Just choose them out of thin air? So I can make a mouse droid with XS arms that are 50D Str, and for no cost (except the Strong skeleton it would require)? I'm trying to understand how you envision this could happen, so I hope you can clarify it for me. I'll admit if I missed something.

I addressed this. The final weight before adding the gun and robot parts was 0 and final volume was therefore technically 0 as well. So I used the smallest size given, 0.25 tons and volume of 1.5m^3, thought technically you could validly define it even smaller.

Yes, I saw this, but I don't know where you get those values from. I get the 0 and 0, but where do the 0.25 tons and 1.5m^3 come from?

Personally I think you should just use the Sophontiform rules anyway, so this is really moot. However, I already explained how you could add a Sophontiform upper torso to the grav-vehicle with a Connector Baseplate.

Ah yes, ok that I did miss, sorry. Useful in some circumstances I'll admit, but pretty clunky in others.

The robot rules are poorly done, but they are enough to get the job done in almost all cases. Besides, these are about the last rules on my list to get fixed. I would much rather see the combat and injury rules fixed since they are so bad that the game is literally unplayable without making up your own rules.

The only reason I make any kind of deal about it is because (I guess unlike most people) this is important to me. Robots was one of my favorite parts of CT, and I've been missing it ever since (until the MT rules came out recently anyway, which I was very happy with). So naturally I was pretty enthused about T5 bringing them back, and then really disappointed with how it was done. I agree combat needs to be fixed, but it works far better IMO than the Robot rules, and thanks to many people being more interested in those we've been over them quite a lot, with lots of potential fixes available. The poor robots have been virtually ignored until this thread (thanks Rob!). Someone needs to speak for them!

 

[SpaceBadger]

I may be missing something in this thread, and since I don't have T5 yet I can't try this out myself, but why not try designing the same thing from different approaches and see how similar or different the results are? I mean, try one Warbot the way Robject built it, then another w same design goals built as a vehicle, then another built as a Thing?

 

[arentol]

I think he's just pointing out to me that the Zhodani Medium Warbot is, in fact, sophontiform -- and he's right.

And, the Zhodani Heavy Warbot is pretty much a Vehicle.

Where I get tripped up is with the Zhodani Light Warbot, which is too small for a Vehicle, and not sophontiform -- or if it is, then it's just a head, no torso, no limbs!

IIRC a ZLW looks like a floating ball with a gun in it. If so then you are looking at this wrong. You are seeing something that looks like a floating head to you and so defining it as such... So in game terms you are seeing it as an HBS+T with the T removed, which seems to violate game rules. But in game terms it is actually using the N+TBS (No Head + Torso with Brains and Senses) body structure, which is well within game rules and fairly easy to build within the Sophontiform rules or the Strangeform rules, and can even be made with the Vehiclemaker + Strangeform rules since that is literally what I just designed earlier, just without the Connector to an upper body Sophontiform.

If doing it with Sophontiform rules exclusively you can deal with the internal gun by defining it as having an XSmall limb with Fine Detail Manipulator and define that as being inside the torso. It's job is to pull the trigger. Add the rest of the parts like brain, armored skin, power, baseplate, etc, and you are done.

 

[arentol]

I may be missing something in this thread, and since I don't have T5 yet I can't try this out myself, but why not try designing the same thing from different approaches and see how similar or different the results are? I mean, try one Warbot the way Robject built it, then another w same design goals built as a vehicle, then another built as a Thing?

Part of the problem is that the rules are really poorly written. Basically all the detailed rules are stated to be specifically for Sophontiforms. So really there are no specific rules for Strangeforms. Then to add to the confusion it says in one place that Strangeforms are vehicles, but then it says in another that they can look like Sophontiforms. But this leads to the question.... Why do I care which forms each can take if I don't know how I am supposed to build Strangeforms to start with?

My take on all this confusion is that you should always just use the Sophontiform rules. Without them the Strangeform rules are too lacking to use. So then it becomes simple...

Want to make a robot plane? No problem, first build the vehicle and add a Connector to it. Then build a robot using the Sophontiform rules and have it mounted inside the vehicle.

Want to make a spider-bot? No problem, use the Sophontiform rules and just give it 8 legs. This is a stretch of the rules as written a little, as they basically seem to imply there are only 4 limbs available, but given the number of holes in the first 560 pages of that you have to overlook to make the game playable, it just isn't much of a stretch to assume that the implied limitation of 4 limbs is in error.

 

[Murdoc]

Want to make a spider-bot? No problem, use the Sophontiform rules and just give it 8 legs. This is a stretch of the rules as written a little, as they basically seem to imply there are only 4 limbs available, but given the number of holes in the first 560 pages of that you have to overlook to make the game playable, it just isn't much of a stretch to assume that the implied limitation of 4 limbs is in error.

Small aside, but I think you can have as many legs as you want. There are four limb-groups, and each can be a pair of legs, noted LL-LL, that would be 8 legs. There is also the "M" code for "Multiple Leg Groups"; not sure where that is described but it makes it sound like you can have even more than that if you want. (p 555)

 

[Licheking]

There is nothing i have found that says you cannot put a weapon into a robot, in fact i believe that one of the charts has welder on it which is 10 Units and 10KCr, you could just as easily use the ThingMaker rules to find the size of a particular weapon and use that as Units and then multiple the cost of the weapon by 1.1 or whatever you choose to represent fittings and add that to your robot.

I have spent the last couple of days making up robots and the Zhodani Warbot the floating torso one with laser rifle from Robots book 8 was actually one of the easiest to make the only problem i had was the cost was way higher than the old one and i'm not sure what Endurance has to do with robots. I have personally used it as a Strength multiplier making robots naturally stronger than their fleshy counterparts to represent their lack of pain and higher machine tolerances.

 

[robject]

I think you do have to. Looking at the design checklist on page 563 it says: "1. Select Sophont Pattern." So if you don't already have one, it needs to be made (although I'm sure you can skip the bits about caste, gender, etc. and just concentrate on body form). But, even if we assume you are right, and you can ignore this step, how does one figure out what the characteristics of the robot are? Just choose them out of thin air?

The chapter on Robots is dedicated for building sophontiform robots, because that's the need. Robots which are not sophontiform ... are vehicles. Or some other hunk of equipment. Vehicles don't have the same characteristics as people, so there's no need to determine them.

This speaks to purpose. If the purpose of a robot is to be a Scout and serve four terms, it will have to be sophontic. But if its purpose is to be a grav carrier, then it needs volume, load, speed, cost...

The only reason I make any kind of deal about it is because (I guess unlike most people) this is important to me. Robots was one of my favorite parts of CT, and I've been missing it ever since (until the MT rules came out recently anyway, which I was very happy with). So naturally I was pretty enthused about T5 bringing them back, and then really disappointed with how it was done. I agree combat needs to be fixed, but it works far better IMO than the Robot rules, and thanks to many people being more interested in those we've been over them quite a lot, with lots of potential fixes available. The poor robots have been virtually ignored until this thread (thanks Rob!). Someone needs to speak for them!

I think Traveller5 approaches robots in a better way than other versions. Essentially we have been given guidelines on how to stick a self-aware computer or organic brain into anything that has room for it.

The reason we have the Robots chapter, again, is because the only exception to the above is when we create specifically sophont-like robots.

Robot rules in Traveller5 are scattered about, with this chapter being the best single-treatment. But, inasmuch as a vehicle can be a robot, VehicleMaker is therefore also part of the Robot rules. And, inasmuch as an organic brain can replace a ship's computer, ACS is also part of the Robot rules. And, don't forget Synthetics, which are organic robots, of a sort.

Therefore, I think the conceptual split between people and equipment is apt for robots, and where equipment is concerned, we already have design rules plus computer/brain rules. Perhaps just a little extra encouragement is needed in the rules.

 

[Murdoc]

The chapter on Robots is dedicated for building sophontiform robots, because that's the need.

From reading the rest of your post I take it by this you mean it is needed because you can do anything else with the rest of the rules in the book. I have yet to see that. Even the examples that have been given were rough estimates, not done nearly as neatly or as easily as has been done in prior editions.

Robots which are not sophontiform ... are vehicles. Or some other hunk of equipment.

Yeah, and it's that last bit that we are missing (adequate) rules for.

Vehicles don't have the same characteristics as people, so there's no need to determine them.

That I know already. But we were talking about the like of Zho warbots, which have arms. Somewhere we have to determine the strength of those arms, and their Dex. So as I asked before in what you just quoted, where do we determine those stats if we don't have to make up a sophont to pattern this on first?

This speaks to purpose. If the purpose of a robot is to be a Scout and serve four terms, it will have to be sophontic. But if its purpose is to be a grav carrier, then it needs volume, load, speed, cost...

Again, that's fine. But I can envision a lot more kinds of robots other than Cmdr. Data and KITT. Just take a look at 101 Robots, how many of those can we make? The Courtroom Guard? The Interrogation robot? Ambulance attendant? Medical expert robot? How about the automatic medical booth robot? Or the prospector robot? Planetary rescue robots? Etc. etc. None of those are sophotiform, nor are they vehicles. If you try to use the sophontiform rules, you first have to make up some whacky sophont to pattern them after. If you try to use the vehicle rules, you have to do a lot of handwaving and guestimating the stats because anything under a ton gets pretty imprecise, and you still can't put arms on it because how you determine the stats? As you said, vehicles don't need stats, so clearly VehicleMaker is an inadequate choice for such robots.

I think Traveller5 approaches robots in a better way than other versions. Essentially we have been given guidelines on how to stick a self-aware computer or organic brain into anything that has room for it.

Better?? o: You can't do anything that doesn't conform to either the sophont or vehicle rules first. And yet we could do all these nifty things in CT, easily (and moreso in the new MT rules). Yes, you can stick a brain in anything you can design in other T5 rules, that's great. Except there are no rules for making robot bodies other than vehicles and sophonts. And there was nothing saying you couldn't put a robot brain in other things in CT/MT. The MT rules even have a fully-automated scout ship!

The reason we have the Robots chapter, again, is because the only exception to the above is when we create specifically sophont-like robots.

And all the examples I listed above. And more.

And, don't forget Synthetics, which are organic robots, of a sort.

Although I haven't really tried them out yet, I'm am for now ok with the rules on Synthetics and Androids. Well, except for Marc's decision to redefine the word "android". But I should start giving those more of a look soon.

 

[robject]

I see your point -- there's no guiding text for us. But surely installing a Brain into *anything* can make it a "robot" of sorts.

I also see your more interesting point, that we can take a vehicle or hunk of equipment, and graft on robot arms and legs. And I think we DO need rules for that -- at least so we know what size legs we need. And, yeah, I can see characteristics needed there as well.

For that matter, the robots chapter should have a spillover mention about using these rules for cybernetics.

 

[Reban]

Again, that's fine. But I can envision a lot more kinds of robots other than Cmdr. Data and KITT. Just take a look at 101 Robots, how many of those can we make? The Courtroom Guard? The Interrogation robot? Ambulance attendant? Medical expert robot? How about the automatic medical booth robot? Or the prospector robot? Planetary rescue robots? Etc. etc. None of those are sophotiform, nor are they vehicles.

I'm looking at the MT's 101 Robots and I can see on p.23 the Planetary Rescue Robots and to me they look like VLite Air/rafts fitted with two heavy arms and two light arms.

Okay the prospector robot on p.26 is a funny shape. Three small cylinders and a larger squat cylinder on top with 2 heavy arms. I can figure out the volume of the cylinders from ThingMaker with the max volume of about 75Liters so it can fit inside the bridge of a seeker. The arms I can get from the T5 Robots chapter.

Courtroom guard is a sphere with 5 arms. The Ambulance attendant robot could be done by fitting a grav harness to a medical lowbert with 2 arms and 2 testicles and a robot brain. The Aslan medical expert robot is a cone with six arms and a medical kit.

I'm going to make a rash promise, and attempt to offer a T5 version of the courtroom Guard.