[T5Stuff] Strangeform Non-Vehicle Robots

[arentol]

I think you do have to. Looking at the design checklist on page 563 it says: "1. Select Sophont Pattern." So if you don't already have one, it needs to be made (although I'm sure you can skip the bits about caste, gender, etc. and just concentrate on body form). But, even if we assume you are right, and you can ignore this step, how does one figure out what the characteristics of the robot are? Just choose them out of thin air? So I can make a mouse droid with XS arms that are 50D Str, and for no cost (except the Strong skeleton it would require)? I'm trying to understand how you envision this could happen, so I hope you can clarify it for me. I'll admit if I missed something.

Well, the base assumption of my suggestion is that players and referees keep it realistic. But in terms of actual process, I am suggesting that you first envision what the robot looks like and what it can do. Then build it to meet your vision right up to page 569 section A. Then before putting the final stats on from page 569-A back-calculate the size on page 563 to determine roughly how many dice you need as a minimum for C1, C2, and C3. Then add more size if you need to in order to meet the vision, but with a correspondingly larger and stronger result.

So in the case of your mouse droid with the 50D Strength, and assumed 2d C2 and C3, the total of the three stats would be 54. Per page 563 its roughly estimated size would be 54x12 = 648 units, or about 9 times the size of a human being. Your mouse droid is a true monster! But to keep it the physical size you defined already you will probably have to use 1D for all three of C1, C2, and C3, and even that is bigger than a mouse droid should be.

 

[Reban]

Okay here’s my attempt at the 101 Robots “Courtroom Guard”

Lets establish the parameters
Tech Level = 14
Okay first problem, I don’t have access to Book 8: Robots so I’m going to have to make an educated guess at the size. I’ll select Size=4(0.75m) since it’s probably roughly man sized to be able to do its job. To match the illustration I’ll select Profile as Sphere. Density will be set to aluminium =3. Construction is Container = 0.8 because I’ll be filling it with brains etc. later. The original has the equivalent of Mesh armour so the T5 version gets Protection =3.

Length =0.75 Width=0.54 Height= 0.54
Volume = 0.75*0.54*0.54 =0.22m3 or 220 Liters
Mass = 220*3*0.2 =132Kg
Protection = 3
Ar=1 (I think this is right as construction is Hollow)


Okay so that’s the hull, body or “form” of the robot. I’m not bothering with armor at this stage as this is a rough draft.

We have 220Liters to play with so now I’m turning to the T5 Robot Chapter.
220/12= 18 Dice for C1, C2, C3

I’m going to skip the Brain in detail because it requires real decisions about how intelligent and the skill focus you require for the job. It would take me too long right now to figure out what the brain needs to know to be a good bailiff. So I’ll just select an Electronic Brain of 2 units with an Emotional Supplement.

Likewise with senses I’m skipping over them here. Sufice to say this robot will have vision and hearing. Like the original it will also have smell. I’ll locate the senses around the circumference of the sphere.
This robot has no skeleton or muscles, we can assign C1 as 6D from the calculation above.

Arms. I’ll convert the original’s medium arms to T5 standard arms and work from there.

2 standard Arms =12 units
1 Quite Small Arm = 3 units
1 XSmall arm = 1 unit
1 Quite Large Arm = 9 units​

25 units of Arms. Each Arm gets a manipulator of some kind which is 5 units. Since I think these are retractable I’ll subtract them from the body volume like the brain.

At this point we have (220 – 27 =) 193 units

I’m surprized that a Mobile lifter only takes 30 units for my 220 unit body, I might consider fitting 3 to carry the mass of the robot properly. That leaves us with 103 units or liters to fit other stuff in.
I’ll add Networked and Radio for 2 units and move to the equipment chapter for other equipment.

The Electronic Brain requires an electric power source separate from the robot power source. Electric Weekly Cell 12 units and a FusionPlus plant to run the rest 18 units.

That leaves 71 units. A Range=2 NAS is Size 4 and 4Kg so I think I can build that in for 4 units. We could give it a HoloVisor MP for 5 units. Metal Detector might be good in a court security role fo 1 unit. Leaving 61 units for other equipment (I’ll use 1 unit to store a bible or equivalent book) .


That’s how I’d do it, and its more of a process than a finished design but I think its possible for any strangeform non vehicle robot. Things I have to think about with this approach 1) I haven’t tracked costs 2) I haven’t used muscles but assumed mechanical power which perhaps should account for some of the leftover 60 units.

 

[Reban]

Courtroom Security Robot

Size 4 (Diameter 75cm)
Volume 220 Liters
Speed 2
Str = 6D (In other words set the values to between 6 and 36 for all these robots)
Dex = 6D
End = 6D
Int = DD
Edu = 2/4/6 depending on cost

Equipment:
5 Arms, NAS, HoloVisorMP, Radio, Network.

EDIT: Took me 2 hours and 20 minutes but thats the first Robot I've built with T5. With a bit more detailing especially on price and skills I'd be happy to use it in an encounter.

 

[arentol]

Great example. Almost exactly what I was talking about. You defined size first but it should be obvious how you could have left that undefined, added up units at the end, and then determined size and C1-C3. It would be smaller that way but, as I mentioned, there is no reason you can't up-size it at the end and add more stats if it isn't as big as you planned.

Your robot does have a skeleton. It should be a Strong Exterior Shell, 15 units. Strong is required if your robot has 6D Strength or more.

Your robot also needs muscles no matter what, and since it has arms it definitely needs them. In this case Stronger muscles, 2 units would make the most sense.

I don't see where you are getting the Protection and Armor values from, but from what I can tell you should be putting Double Armor (AR2) for 2 units on it.

Also the Mass should be 220*1.5 = 330kg. Page 563 explains this under Robot Size.

 

[robject]

There's one more aspect I had completely forgotten, until these posts reminded me. I present my draft article for your amusement:

Robots and BeastMaker

There are actually THREE kinds of strangeform robots:
1. Vehicular Strangeform - EASY, just pop in a brain and its support.
2. Sophont Strangeform - accounted for in the current Robots draft.
3. Beast Strangeform.

Beasts differ from Sophonts primarily in scale. This means a scale multiplier should allow "beastform" robots.

THE PROCESS

1. The Design Volume, in Units, is calculated per characteristic. Use the robot design charts as-is.
2. Apply Scale as follows:
a. Actual volume, in Liters, depends on Creature Size.
b. Actual cost similarly depends on Creature Size.
Size 6 = multiply volume and cost by 10.
Size 7 = multiply volume and cost by 100.
Size 8 = multiply volume and cost by 1000.
3. Finally, add equipment as needed.


ROBOTIC BEAST BODY EXAMPLE
Body: Fast, Strong, Vlarge (Size 6) Flyer, Bilateral H-TBS AW-WL-T.

STR is 6 x 4D = 24D.

Robot Volume, STR only. 24D x 12 = 288 Units.

Skeleton. Strong Flexible Interior Skeleton, Agile. Cr20,000. 16 Units.

Muscles. Strong Muscles. Cr 10,000.

Limbs
Two arms, Standard. 12 Units total.
Two wings, Standard. 24 Units total.
Two wings, Large. 32 Units total.
Two legs, Standard. 18 Units total.
One tail, Standard. 6 Units.

Manipulators: two paws. 2 Units total, Cr 20,000 total.

Subtotals
110 Units out of 288 used, leaving 178 units for extra stuff - armor, integrated equipment, senses, the brain itself, protections, etc etc.

Cost for the body is Cr 50,000 (although I imagine that the limbs should cost something as well).

Scale Up

Robot is Size 6, therefore actual volume and cost is x10.

Actual volume = 288 x 10 = 2880 Liters.
Actual body cost = Cr 50,000 x 10 = Cr 500,000 (so far)

Now equipment can be added.

 

[Reban]

Your robot does have a skeleton. It should be a Strong Exterior Shell, 15 units. Strong is required if your robot has 6D Strength or more.

Okay good point. I designed my body with ThingMaker because I was specifically looking for a sphere. I hadn't thought that the Strong exterior Shell could be the sphere I wanted.

Your robot also needs muscles no matter what, and since it has arms it definitely needs them. In this case Stronger muscles, 2 units would make the most sense.

Mhm thats the bit that was nagging me. Okay so arms are simple unpowered frames that require "muscle". I think it needs to be stated that in strangeform cases, "muscle" could stand for hydralic rams, electric actuators, pneumatic systems or cams and clockwork.

I don't see where you are getting the Protection and Armor values from, but from what I can tell you should be putting Double Armor (AR2) for 2 units on it.

Also the Mass should be 220*1.5 = 330kg. Page 563 explains this under Robot Size.

I designed the body or case for this robot in ThingMaker (in just the same way as you could design a vehicle to put a brain into). Thats where these Armor values and Mass comes from. I think doing it this way allows me to build a body or case with any possible armor value rather than the limited (sophont like) armor values found in the Robot chapter. Double Armor is just a thin skin over the chassis, What I've done is to design an armored chassis (ok so its only Ar=1 but you can specify any Ar or other protection you require at the expense of mass).

Likewise ThingMaker produces mass based on the density of the particular material used where as Robot assumes an average mass of 1.5Kg per Liter/Unit based on a skeletal structure. I like the accuracy from ThingMaker when the shell material is important.

 

[Murdoc]

Great example. Almost exactly what I was talking about. You defined size first but it should be obvious how you could have left that undefined, added up units at the end, and then determined size and C1-C3. It would be smaller that way but, as I mentioned, there is no reason you can't up-size it at the end and add more stats if it isn't as big as you planned.

Ok, that is bloody clever, I'll give you guys that. And it does solve that major problem. It's still a house rule basically to patch a big hole, but it does make that part workable. It's just too bad that it still doesn't fix the problems of limbs being free of cost, or that a robot's physical stats are independent of its TL. I mean, I assume they can make better robots at higher TLs? Oh, and we still can't make wheeled or tracked robots (non-vehicle ones anyway), like the General Worker robot (30), or the mini-courier robot (9).

There's one more aspect I had completely forgotten, until these posts reminded me. I present my draft article for your amusement:

Robots and BeastMaker

There are actually THREE kinds of strangeform robots:
1. Vehicular Strangeform - EASY, just pop in a brain and its support.
2. Sophont Strangeform - accounted for in the current Robots draft.
3. Beast Strangeform.

Yes, there should be beastform robots as well, I agree, but there are still strangeform robots that don't fit either sophont or beasts. You need that type in there. And type 2 doesn't make any sense, since sophontiform robots are by (T5) definition not strangeforms, so it's a separate category.

Ok, so overall my position on all this is changed, with all this houseruling and such the system can be made basically workable, for many more kinds of robots. Still not as many as before by far though. So in essence, it's workable, but not nearly as good as previous rules, and as the "Ultimate" rule set, it should be at least as good, if not better. Perhaps with enough changes it will be good enough and put into the next version/revision of T5.

 

[Reban]

It's just too bad that it still doesn't fix the problems of limbs being free of cost, or that a robot's physical stats are independent of its TL. I mean, I assume they can make better robots at higher TLs? Oh, and we still can't make wheeled or tracked robots (non-vehicle ones anyway), like the General Worker robot (30), or the mini-courier robot (9).


Ok, so overall my position on all this is changed, with all this houseruling and such the system can be made basically workable, for many more kinds of robots. Still not as many as before by far though. So in essence, it's workable, but not nearly as good as previous rules, and as the "Ultimate" rule set, it should be at least as good, if not better. Perhaps with enough changes it will be good enough and put into the next version/revision of T5.

I have to agree about TL. Going through the Robots chapter TL is almost entirely absent. Inferring from the sidebar on p.563 all Robots created in the chapter are TL13+. So for me the question becomes the opposite of yours Murdoc; "At lower TLs how do they dis-improve?".

For this type of question I always turn to p.500 The Stage Effects Master Table. If Robots are Standard at TL13 as i say then we can design Experimental Robots at TL10 and Ultimate Robots at TL17. I'd use the ThingMaker volume effects for volume effects.

Its weird the way this chapter isn't properly integrated with Stage Effects. Another thing I'm having a problem with is the volume of the components. Reading it, it seems to me that all the volumes presuppose a 72Litre Sophont form. For example a Standard Bony Interior skeleton is 12Units/Liters. Sounds fine for a 72Liter Human but for a Virushi form robot as well? Am I missing something, because to my mind all these volumes should be "per x units of total volume" or something similar.

Take the problem I ran into yesterday. I had a body three times the volume of a human/sophont (and more massive). I wanted to install a mobile lifter to make it float. It only cost me 30 units. I fudged it and installed three (I also pulled the Speed 2 from the air assuming that it would do at least running speed).

I also agree with Murdoc, wheels and tracks need to be added to Connectors and Undercarriages on p.568.


On these being houserules, I'd see it more as using all areas of the book to create a final product rather than coming up with a new rule. Glad we changed your mind Murdoc, but having worked through it I have to say, we're not there yet but we're getting there.

 

[Licheking]

Use the the chapter on TL effects and apply them to robots. Either use the Vehicle or Thingmaker examples of TL mods and you have your TL variation. I have done this and it works very well.