GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
The first Star Hero was for Hero 3rd, IIRC. It tried to evoke the Pulp serials, 60s classic SF, and 80s cheesy team cartoons *all at the same time*. The resulting mess makes Robot Warriors look like a model of unity and clarity.
Taking up the torch from DonM?
- Thread starter BlackBat242
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The first Star Hero was for Hero 3rd, IIRC. It tried to evoke the Pulp serials, 60s classic SF, and 80s cheesy team cartoons *all at the same time*. The resulting mess makes Robot Warriors look like a model of unity and clarity.
That's unfortunate.
I seem to recall that HERO was (or is) an Experience based system like D&D and T&T. The more you fight and adventures you go through, the more experience you earn to buy off your disadvantages.
It sounds like this was changed for some reason. But, to me at least, it seems like the experience aspect alone would alienate it from being able to absorb or mimic other systems, much less Traveller.
p.s. HERO (Champions) was developed by some guys here locally in San Mateo in an office above a wedding boutique run by Koreans and a movie theatre where I saw "The Land that Time Forgot"
They've sine moved many years ago.
I seem to recall that HERO was (or is) an Experience based system like D&D and T&T. The more you fight and adventures you go through, the more experience you earn to buy off your disadvantages.
It sounds like this was changed for some reason. But, to me at least, it seems like the experience aspect alone would alienate it from being able to absorb or mimic other systems, much less Traveller.
p.s. HERO (Champions) was developed by some guys here locally in San Mateo in an office above a wedding boutique run by Koreans and a movie theatre where I saw "The Land that Time Forgot"
They've sine moved many years ago.
Wow, okay. I'm glad I missed it then.
It still worked just fine. The real problem was that it also did some things differently than the other 3rd edition era games (Champions, Fantasy Hero, Danger International 2e, Robot Warriors).
But, for some reason, I find point based characters bug me in sci-fi more than class and level does. Unless... they build over time in a lifepath metric of some form.
And Robot Warriors, for all its schlock, worked REALLY well as a game.
Both RW and SH for 3e failed right off for lack of an instant setting. Too hard to run without major prep, because neither easy to drop-in to reality.
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
RW worked, but the book had a few unfortunate layout errors. It remains a favorite of mine simply because it was completely unapologetic about Effect Over Cause.
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
p.s. HERO (Champions) was developed by some guys here locally in San Mateo in an office above a wedding boutique run by Koreans and a movie theatre where I saw "The Land that Time Forgot"
They've since moved many years ago.
"Moved" is an understatement. None of the guys who once formed Hero House in Belmont are or have been seriously involved since 4th Edition. A couple were part of the New Millennium project, but the company name and game(s) were dormant until Steve Long bought up the rights and produced the over-lawyered 5th, then 5th Revised. Steve and his team were then supposedly muscled out by the guys who produced 6th. I have no unbiased information sources (but several biased sources) for that transition, so I may be mischaracterizing it.
The New Years parties at Hero House were legendary.
I missed a lot of the drama because the parental unit, misinterpreting my gaming hobby as an escape from reality, when in fact I was trying to prepare myself for a media career and using games as an organic story telling device, intentionally kept me away from a lot of gaming groups with the aid of two Italian brothers who were gamers, but heavily into religion. But I digress ... rather bitterly.
I'm glad Traveller seems to have escape some of those battles, which makes me wonder what advantage there is of porting one system to another. GURPS I can kind of understand, as GURPS has a strong database for various backgrounds.
But Champions / HERO seemed like an odd duck to me, unless the whole burgeoning superhero craze was going to infect Traveller (which is what I thought was going to happen).
In my personal judgment, as interesting as a translation from one system may be, it strikes me as an academic exercise, because unless you're publishing new material for your target market, you're not really expanding your market as such (at least in my judgment). It almost strikes me as a marketing ploy, because it would seem to make more sense to not only publish the rules, but also sample adventures showing both sets of stats for both systems for weapons, equipment and characters.
Just me. I could go on about this subject, but will refrain. I guess both games lend themselves to law enforcement themes, so maybe there's a kind of connection there or something.
Interesting.
I'm glad Traveller seems to have escape some of those battles, which makes me wonder what advantage there is of porting one system to another. GURPS I can kind of understand, as GURPS has a strong database for various backgrounds.
But Champions / HERO seemed like an odd duck to me, unless the whole burgeoning superhero craze was going to infect Traveller (which is what I thought was going to happen).
In my personal judgment, as interesting as a translation from one system may be, it strikes me as an academic exercise, because unless you're publishing new material for your target market, you're not really expanding your market as such (at least in my judgment). It almost strikes me as a marketing ploy, because it would seem to make more sense to not only publish the rules, but also sample adventures showing both sets of stats for both systems for weapons, equipment and characters.
Just me. I could go on about this subject, but will refrain. I guess both games lend themselves to law enforcement themes, so maybe there's a kind of connection there or something.
Interesting.
See, the thing is you're trapped with a mid-80's to maybe 1992 view of the Hero System... a view that Champions is the primary version played...
Many of the Hero System gamers since the mid 80's don't play supers with it. My experience is that Champions players are about 1/3 of the Hero System players I know. The other 2/3 won't do supers at all. They play westerns, they play Fantasy, they play espionage, they play various forms of sci-fi...
When it comes down to it, Champions is the largest genre for the game, but it's not the majority of what I'm seeing played/discussed.
Mind you also: I've not been active in the Hero System community online since the WWIVnet days, and haven't run it since about 2004. I've only run it as champions for maybe 6 hours, but have run two half-year-long Fantasy Hero (HSR4e edition) campaigns, a 2 month Robot Warriors game, several one shots of Danger International...
it's a VERY robust engine. But it works best when everyone playing understands the system. And it really helps for all players to have a strong grip on the setting as well as the rules.
There are really 8 generic games of note (GURPS, Hero, BRP, Storyteller, d6, Fate Core, CORPS, and EABA), and several others less well known (Plainlabel, Cortex Hackers Guid, Cortex System Guide, Masterbook), and some traveller fans have ported traveller to them, and other games as well. I've ported Traveller to Storyteller and EABA... CORPS had a detailed conversion at one point. There was a GURPS conversion 3 years prior to Loren's, floating around WWIVnet. There was an unofficial hero version by 1994, but it wasn't very thorough. BRP Traveller is older still - and was published with the serial numbers filed off as "Worlds Beyond"...
Fans of generic systems tend to pull everything into it. Just like many Classic Traveller fanboys port Star Trek to Traveller, and there are half a dozen released fantasy versions of Traveller based upon the MGT engine.
*nods*
I actually played the HERO system about six years ago in a fantasy-supers hybrid game. It was interesting, and actually had the same feel of the classic Champions system I learned way back when ... but I guess I didn't read much of the HERO rulebook to check for changes.
Thanks for the listing of generic systems. I've always considered Traveller as a "generic" system as per the text, so that also added a layer of bafflement as to the porting to other systems. But I guess it's just exposing the game to other venues.
I actually played the HERO system about six years ago in a fantasy-supers hybrid game. It was interesting, and actually had the same feel of the classic Champions system I learned way back when ... but I guess I didn't read much of the HERO rulebook to check for changes.
Thanks for the listing of generic systems. I've always considered Traveller as a "generic" system as per the text, so that also added a layer of bafflement as to the porting to other systems. But I guess it's just exposing the game to other venues.
1977 CT was intended to be generic in the same way as D&D or T&T... matching a large chunk of genre, but specific to a genre not a setting . But, by 1980, most new games were having settings, and Traveller was starting to build an actual setting... The Emperor's list, the definition of how tyhe imperium organized its navy in Bk5 and scouts in bk6.
Palladium was making waves with the Mechanoids, Bard Games was about to release the first edition of The Arcanum (set in a Hyborea of their creation), C&S was in development, Chaosium was releasing a hot new setting-based game, Call of Cthulhu...
1980 changed the industry. By 1984, when I started, the view of Traveller was, with most people I knew, as a game with its own setting, inspired by but different from, Niven's Known Space, Asimov's Foundation, Heinlein's SST, and all kinds of Pulp Sci-Fi. So, for me, who's first rulebook was TTB, the OTU was in the books from the get go. It wasn't a generic game.
And by 1987, with MT, the rules explicitly became the OTU focused game.
shadowcat48li
SOC-6
there is also a Star Trek port for Hero, although its mosty from the FASA version.
Okay, I just got back from the former local gaming store (I'm an north of it now), and I spoke with the local in house HERO expert. According to him the HERO people are taking the game back to its Champion roots, and that there hasn't been a whole lot of HERO expansion into other genres. So I guess Traveller is ahead of the curve, because it seems like that trend will reverse at some point.
Lots of HERO Champions' books on the shelf, very near the GURPS and Mongoose Traveller books. This is my first exposure to Mongoose Traveller, and they look pretty slick. Kind of like what the BBB was striving for many years back. They also had just sold out of their last HERO Fantasy book, but had lots of Champions books, including some third party HERO compatible stuff. I guess the game is thriving and bigger than ever. Wow. I guess I understand better why Traveller is getting ported to it.
It'll be interesting to see what finally manifests.
p.s. John, I think the Champions' guys first move was to Belmont before taking off. Belmont is literally down the street from their first office. I'm guessing they made the move for more space for cheaper rent because Belmont still had lots of unincorporated areas at the time; i.e. no property taxes.
Lots of HERO Champions' books on the shelf, very near the GURPS and Mongoose Traveller books. This is my first exposure to Mongoose Traveller, and they look pretty slick. Kind of like what the BBB was striving for many years back. They also had just sold out of their last HERO Fantasy book, but had lots of Champions books, including some third party HERO compatible stuff. I guess the game is thriving and bigger than ever. Wow. I guess I understand better why Traveller is getting ported to it.
It'll be interesting to see what finally manifests.
p.s. John, I think the Champions' guys first move was to Belmont before taking off. Belmont is literally down the street from their first office. I'm guessing they made the move for more space for cheaper rent because Belmont still had lots of unincorporated areas at the time; i.e. no property taxes.
BlackBat242
SOC-14 1K
I've got the base rulebooks for Fantasy HERO (and its bestiary, 2 companion, & magic items books), Western Hero, Justice INC (1930s pulp/serials, from Doc Savage through The Shadow, Allan Qatermain, Maltese Falcon, The Lost World [Conan Doyle's version], etc [Lovecraft even gets a mention in the "recommended reading" section]), Espionage (1960s-70s spy genre), and Danger International (expansion of Espionage to the 1980s, and including mercenaries/private investigators/etc).
These used the 3rd through 4th editions of the HERO system.
I've also got Champions 2E and many supplements for that - and Champions 4E - but of all that I've only played Champions 2E, and that only in 1984/85!
I've not even really read those rule-sets very much either.
These used the 3rd through 4th editions of the HERO system.
I've also got Champions 2E and many supplements for that - and Champions 4E - but of all that I've only played Champions 2E, and that only in 1984/85!
I've not even really read those rule-sets very much either.
Did they just publish material to establish the settings, or did they publish actual adventure modules?
BlackBat242
SOC-14 1K
Settings - no, as all but Champions, Fantasy HERO, & Justice INC were set "on the real world "as historic" Earth" - and Champions was basically in all the comic-book superhero settings at the same time (the Ref was supposed to make up adventures to fit what he wanted to be the situation), while Justice INC was set in whatever novelized/movie/comic book setting you wanted to play in - or your own.
In fact, in most of these rule-books they say to create your own general background in which to place the adventures, not just for the characters or specific adventure.
As for modules, I don't know for all of those, as I just got the Fantasy & Western rulebooks about 6 years ago.
I got Justice INC, Espionage & Danger International in the late 1980s - and I do have a module for D.I.: S.H.A.D.O.W. over Scotland.
I never really looked for modules, as in all of the RPGs we played in the 1980s we created our own adventures/settings rather than using published materials - it was just "the way you were supposed to do it" to us.
In fact, in most of these rule-books they say to create your own general background in which to place the adventures, not just for the characters or specific adventure.
As for modules, I don't know for all of those, as I just got the Fantasy & Western rulebooks about 6 years ago.
I got Justice INC, Espionage & Danger International in the late 1980s - and I do have a module for D.I.: S.H.A.D.O.W. over Scotland.
I never really looked for modules, as in all of the RPGs we played in the 1980s we created our own adventures/settings rather than using published materials - it was just "the way you were supposed to do it" to us.
The majority of Hero System Modules were for Champions.
There was one module for Robot Warriors.
The MSPE modules may have included conversions for Justice Inc; I'm not certain.
I don't recall any modules released for any other setting books.
There were a BUNCH of setting books.
1st-3rd Ed Era: Champions*, Fantasy Hero*, Star Hero*, Robot Warriors*, Danger International*, Justice Inc*, Autoduel Champions, Espionage §
Champions 2e: had two core expansions: Champions II and Champions III; they were reprinted for 3E.
Champions had a huge raft of adventures.
Fantasy Hero had an expansion book: Spells.
4th ed Era: (Hero System Core Rules*), Champions*, Ninja Hero, Star Hero, Mystic Masters†, Dark Champions†, Western Hero, Cyber Hero, Pirates‡, Robin Hood‡, Mythic Greece‡, Vikings‡, Mythic Egypt‡, Golden Age Champions†, Kazei 5 (subsetting for Cyber Hero). Bestiary.
Note that Fantasy Hero 4th ed had two expansion books
I bought 5th Core, and 5th Rev., but never really used 5th, and didn't get
* indicates stand alone core
† Indicates labeled as champions but could be used stand-alone
‡ Dual system supplement - Hero System & Rolemaster.
§ May have been standalone, but I've never seen a copy
There was one module for Robot Warriors.
The MSPE modules may have included conversions for Justice Inc; I'm not certain.
I don't recall any modules released for any other setting books.
There were a BUNCH of setting books.
1st-3rd Ed Era: Champions*, Fantasy Hero*, Star Hero*, Robot Warriors*, Danger International*, Justice Inc*, Autoduel Champions, Espionage §
Champions 2e: had two core expansions: Champions II and Champions III; they were reprinted for 3E.
Champions had a huge raft of adventures.
Fantasy Hero had an expansion book: Spells.
4th ed Era: (Hero System Core Rules*), Champions*, Ninja Hero, Star Hero, Mystic Masters†, Dark Champions†, Western Hero, Cyber Hero, Pirates‡, Robin Hood‡, Mythic Greece‡, Vikings‡, Mythic Egypt‡, Golden Age Champions†, Kazei 5 (subsetting for Cyber Hero). Bestiary.
Note that Fantasy Hero 4th ed had two expansion books
I bought 5th Core, and 5th Rev., but never really used 5th, and didn't get
* indicates stand alone core
† Indicates labeled as champions but could be used stand-alone
‡ Dual system supplement - Hero System & Rolemaster.
§ May have been standalone, but I've never seen a copy
Side note; the thing I've always been curious about is the fact that when D&D was in its 80s hay-day there were entire racks that took up entire walls filled with nothing but those shrink wrapped adventure modules.
Then I guess towards the early 90s they simply vanished.
Either people, specifically gamers, are now masterful story tellers, or people's story expectations are low. It's part of the reason I quit gaming, and specifically Traveller for a time.
Either stories and adventures are easy to generate with setting books, or it may be that the media is missing out on potential sales by way of selling stories.
Either way I think it's interesting. Those modules used to be strong sellers. I guess partially because a lot of them had settings within them. But now it seems like the only way you can get an adventure module is a PDF off Drivethru, or a hard copy off ebay or a used one sold on Amazon.
Then I guess towards the early 90s they simply vanished.
Either people, specifically gamers, are now masterful story tellers, or people's story expectations are low. It's part of the reason I quit gaming, and specifically Traveller for a time.
Either stories and adventures are easy to generate with setting books, or it may be that the media is missing out on potential sales by way of selling stories.
Either way I think it's interesting. Those modules used to be strong sellers. I guess partially because a lot of them had settings within them. But now it seems like the only way you can get an adventure module is a PDF off Drivethru, or a hard copy off ebay or a used one sold on Amazon.
Dungeon Magazine also came along with more stories in a month than I could use in a year.
That's interesting. I'll search for an article on the subject later on today.
It can be a tough business when an Amber Zone a little bit of prep can be more than enough to satisfy than a full boat module.
I think the modules ended up being morphed in to more complete and complicated "source books" that expand the universe at large rather than episodic scenarios.
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