As I was saying, most of us are happy doing our own thing and wouldn't want to use the OTU.
I'm pleased that you love Cepheus and I hope you'll continue to enjoy the various versions of Cepheus out there as we continue to grow.
General Whats happening with Traveller today?
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As I was saying, most of us are happy doing our own thing and wouldn't want to use the OTU.
I'm pleased that you love Cepheus and I hope you'll continue to enjoy the various versions of Cepheus out there as we continue to grow.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 1K
Correction: They would prefer it if there wasn't any competition for sales.
They start with the foundational notion of "ALL YOUR MONEY ARE BELONG TO US!!!" and then conclude that anything that takes a slice of "their" pie is effectively STEALING FROM THEM ... because they were entitled to the entire pie the whole time from the start.
Small surprise then that when they tried to "snap" the competition out of existence, there was something of a little rebellion against the tyrants ...
I would certainly agree that they would have loved to eliminate their competition or to force their competition into a place where it directed income back to them. They're certainly not alone in that attitude.
I would disagree that WotC know or care about Traveller or Cepheus Engine. I suspect that, when they tried to kill the OGL, they were thinking primarily of people like Paizo and didn't know or care about folks like me. Thankfully, that battle has been won for now.
Indeed.Small surprise then that when they tried to "snap" the competition out of existence, there was something of a little rebellion against the tyrants ...
You may or may not remember that I was in the midst of taking arrows from all those who thought the actions of those tyrants wouldn't affect my livelihood when it absolutely would have. I certainly remember it.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
There's only a limited window of opportunity to profit of a franchise, which then requires rejuvenation, both to reignite interest, and likely legal reasons like copyright and patents.
It maybe that Tolkien's grandson is an envious douchebag, but the estate as a whole is correct in trying to cash in on the franchise while it still has leverage, in this case to the tune of half a billion.
Remember, you could Linux Dungeons and Dragons, and get a game system that looks and works similarly, it's just that it's inertially easier for players and dungeon masters to stick with a known and familiar quantity.
It maybe that Tolkien's grandson is an envious douchebag, but the estate as a whole is correct in trying to cash in on the franchise while it still has leverage, in this case to the tune of half a billion.
Remember, you could Linux Dungeons and Dragons, and get a game system that looks and works similarly, it's just that it's inertially easier for players and dungeon masters to stick with a known and familiar quantity.
Daidoji Dave
SOC-11
Not speaking for Kilemall. Also not talking about this thread, I'm thinking of comments elsewhere, from when Cepheus first started.
The backdrop for me is I've been hearing "play Cepheus not MongTrav," "play Cepheus so you can use [adventure] or [setting] that's for Cepheus" (as if they weren't compatible) since Cepheus was just the Mongoose 1e SRD with a few house rules in the direction of Classic, and even worse editing than MongPublishing. (And the last takes some doing.)
And then yes, Cepheus has come a fair distance from its first iteration. But its fundamentally still Traveller, they just can't call it that without kicking Marc Miller a license fee (if he were even open to that with T5 and Mongoose fees on the table). But if you can't convert a "Cepheus" adventure to Mongoose or Classic I don't know how you're running games in the first place.
Now Cepheus is more than just the SRD with a few house rules and worse editing, but its also still just an iteration of Traveller, and a compatible one as far as adventures and settings are concerned, and the party line hasn't changed.
That's what I'm hung up on, is the line hasn't changed. The facts on the ground have shifted slightly, to make the line more plausible, but I still remember when the party line was insulting to your intelligence, and the strong form you still see is still insulting to your intelligence. I'm not attacking Cepheus Deluxe, or its associated publishers, but the attitude of your most dedicated and evangelical online fans isn't doing you any favors, and hasn't from the beginning.
So, IOW, you're not aware of how much things have changed because, when Cepheus started, it was using the MgT1e SRD and you felt upset that people were claiming that changes were incoming but hadn't arrived yet. Interesting take.
I'd encourage you to check out some newer Cepheus products and get over your hang-ups, but I suspect you won't.
Oh... and I don't think anyone is denying that Cepheus started with the Traveller SRD as a base. If they are, they're fooling themselves. But the various versions of Cepheus have grown to a point that one version of Cepheus isn't even just like another.
For instance, Clement Sector has a 675 page rulebook. It's hardly the same as a 20 page SRD. We still use a lot of the SRD as a base, but the rules have been changed here and there and the setting and the assumptions are very different.
Cepheus Deluxe (which is published by Stellagama) is different enough from both my Clement Sector books and MgT1e that it would be hard to assume that they are not different games.
EDIT: I misunderstood your use of the term "line". At first, I thought you were saying that Cepheus is "one line", which is silly since most of the various Cepheus publishers are deviating from each other as well as what Mongoose is doing. Your use of the term "line" as in "party line" isn't much better though as my opinion of things and the opinions of others involved in producing the various product lines differ greatly as wll.
Also, the idea that, just because you can, with a little work, use a Cepheus product with a Mongoose product and vice versa means that they are clearly exactly the same game is more than a little flawed. One wonders if you think Pathfinder and D&D are also the same game...
For instance, Clement Sector has a 675 page rulebook. It's hardly the same as a 20 page SRD. We still use a lot of the SRD as a base, but the rules have been changed here and there and the setting and the assumptions are very different.
Cepheus Deluxe (which is published by Stellagama) is different enough from both my Clement Sector books and MgT1e that it would be hard to assume that they are not different games.
EDIT: I misunderstood your use of the term "line". At first, I thought you were saying that Cepheus is "one line", which is silly since most of the various Cepheus publishers are deviating from each other as well as what Mongoose is doing. Your use of the term "line" as in "party line" isn't much better though as my opinion of things and the opinions of others involved in producing the various product lines differ greatly as wll.
Also, the idea that, just because you can, with a little work, use a Cepheus product with a Mongoose product and vice versa means that they are clearly exactly the same game is more than a little flawed. One wonders if you think Pathfinder and D&D are also the same game...
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An excellent example of what I'm talking about is Mongoose's Conan RPG. It's a great game and they did excellent work with it.
It takes a lot of the D&D3.5 rules as the base for the game, makes a lot of changes here and there as to how things work, how characters are made, and so forth. It makes a lot of changes to the rules to better fit the setting they are bringing to you and they add a lot of new rules which continue to give the flavor of Conan's universe.
It clearly used the D&D rules as a base (and, thus, has the OGL dutifully posted in the back to reflect this) but it made substantial changes and additions to the base. However, you'd hardly say that Mongoose's Conan and WotC's D&D are the exact same game (despite having the ability to use a D&D module or two, with some work, for Conan (I know, as I've done this on numerous occasions)). One could make a good case that they are, in fact, totally different games.
I feel the same about Clement Sector, Hostile, and many of the other Cepheus offerings. You can hardly say that those games and the MgT1e SRD are exactly the same game. One could make a good case that they are, in fact, totally different games.
However, Cepheus Deluxe from Stellagama has made significant changes. Far more than I've made in Clement Sector. So it would be even more difficult to assert that it is the same as the Mongoose Traveller SRD1.
It takes a lot of the D&D3.5 rules as the base for the game, makes a lot of changes here and there as to how things work, how characters are made, and so forth. It makes a lot of changes to the rules to better fit the setting they are bringing to you and they add a lot of new rules which continue to give the flavor of Conan's universe.
It clearly used the D&D rules as a base (and, thus, has the OGL dutifully posted in the back to reflect this) but it made substantial changes and additions to the base. However, you'd hardly say that Mongoose's Conan and WotC's D&D are the exact same game (despite having the ability to use a D&D module or two, with some work, for Conan (I know, as I've done this on numerous occasions)). One could make a good case that they are, in fact, totally different games.
I feel the same about Clement Sector, Hostile, and many of the other Cepheus offerings. You can hardly say that those games and the MgT1e SRD are exactly the same game. One could make a good case that they are, in fact, totally different games.
However, Cepheus Deluxe from Stellagama has made significant changes. Far more than I've made in Clement Sector. So it would be even more difficult to assert that it is the same as the Mongoose Traveller SRD1.
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Daidoji Dave
SOC-11
None of that is what I said, you're twisting it to avoid it.
I have looked at Cepheus products, and generally like them. Its the rabid edge of the fan base that turns me off.
I wasn't "upset that people were claiming changes were incoming but hadn't arrived yet," I noted that they were straight up lying at the outset. Not making claims about what was coming in the future; nobody knew about Cepheus Light or Deluxe. So when I hear the very same line that used to be false, it doesn't fill me with warm fuzzy feelings even if its no longer as false.
Background note: I ran Divine Intervention (for Classic) in Mongoose 1e, no conversion document needed. The same thing would work running it in Mong2e, or in any version of Cepheus I've seen. The scale is basically the same, even if subsystems in the core books are different.
So this is why I'm talking about compatibility of adventures and settings, which you've had to excise to respond. So yes, it is all broadly Traveller. You can run a Cepheus adventure in Mongoose, or a Mongoose adventure in Cepheus. Being told otherwise is openly contemptuous on the part of the person telling you that.
I'm not avoiding anything. I'm agreeing with you that you are biased due to hearing arguments made by people at the time. We were all saying that we intended to take things away from the base and most of us had already done so BEFORE the split with Mongoose and we were most assuredly doing it afterwards. So asserting that none of us knew that we were heading in that direction is patently false.
Also, I literally wrote another post where I discuss your assertions about compatibility. That's hardly avoiding it.
After playing since '79, I agree, too bad nobody tells that to the people on fb or reddit.
If by Traveller you mean 2d6 rules, I'll agree with you that it's all broadly Traveller by that measure.
And there's no contempt meant by me nor I suspect by anyone else. Simple difference of opinions.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
Independence Games and Stellagama have put out some very good material that could be adapted to Traveller if desired. I like the Cepheus Engine as you basically are encouraged to write your own version of the rules. I am still working on mine.
I use Cepheus related products and it’s less work converting them to a Striker combat/weirdo CT/HG starship/Mongooseish task system I run then say TNE stuff, or 2300 gear.
Ya slavishly sticking to RAW and setting may make them different, but all those official Traveller versions are different. They don’t generate product line lock in for me either. I got duct tape and the digital version of white-out and I’m not afraid to use them.
I’m just glad we have a situation that creates different price points and settings and general creativity over all your base belongs to us thinking.
Ya slavishly sticking to RAW and setting may make them different, but all those official Traveller versions are different. They don’t generate product line lock in for me either. I got duct tape and the digital version of white-out and I’m not afraid to use them.
I’m just glad we have a situation that creates different price points and settings and general creativity over all your base belongs to us thinking.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 1K
RIP Hasbro/WotC
We are still in the second golden age of Traveller...
All the old stuff is available.
Two new editions are out there.
Not to forget the Cepheus Engine, which is sparking lots of Traveller goodness.
Almost too many good choices.
Heck even though I am annoyed at Mongoose and their jenkie 2ed I have yet of find that there isn't something out here to stratch my Traveller itch.
LostTraveller
SOC-1
As a Traveller who started playing in 78, I agree that even back in its' early days before the new and improved 3rd Imperium, Traveller always benefited from a number of 3rd party licensees expanding their player base due to readily available and cheap sourcebooks. Judges Guild's referee screen was invaluable for a new referee and their subsectors and adventures were some of the first available. Then Paranoia Press and FASA started adding to the fun with their new services, gear and ships, as well as adventures. I can only speak about the time period of 78-85 and about classic Traveller, due to life ensuring I had no life outside work and kids after that until just recently. I'm trying to find a new group and get back into playing some old and new rpg's.
