• Welcome to the new COTI server. We've moved the Citizens to a new server. Please let us know in the COTI Website issue forum if you find any problems.

Before the OTU...

In the original '77 LBB's there were a few bits that hinted at some aspects of the OTU and its dominant cultural aspects. You could extrapolate on those and come up with something sketchy, but there.

The concept of a feudal organization for subsectors and nobility as part of chargen. And nobility actually means something since it provided DM's for success rolls in chargen. The nobility has strong ties to the military, as well, since the Social Standing DM's are there in chargen. This implied an old aristocratic empire of some type.

The Traveller's Aid Society implied a large cohesive galactic civilization where star travel was common enough a future form of AAA was spawned. So this feudal empire had been around a long time and was pretty civilized. The organization and classifications of starports further support this since they imply some sort of standardized interstellar infrastructure that would need a long established stable government (empire) to create and maintain.

The Psionic Institute and the rules regarding bias and worse against psioincs in society implied some sort of psionic enemy must exist, or existed at one time. Otherwise, why would the Institute be secret and individuals hounded across the star systems? Later this was confirmed by the Zhodani, but the indicators were there and confused me and a lot of people at the time since you would think psionics would be standard fare for a scifi setting.

So I gleaned form those bits and a few others that Traveller would involve a space opera-ish galaxy-spanning empire on one side, with an enemy who could melt your brain with his mind on the other. The empire would be old and established enough that it had a long-established infrastructure supporting interstellar travel and trade, people traveled a lot so they had specialized organizations to help support that, and a universal monetary system supported trade across the parsecs.

The empire had a navy and Marine Force that had strong traditional ties to the ruling aristocracy and probably traditions of noblesse oblige similar to old Earth empires like the British had. And I would bet they had their share then of civil wars and other political machinations for control of the crown and territory, especially given distances and how established the nobility was in the Navy.

That was the image I got when I first read the rules, along with the things mentioned already on this thread. The psioincs was a biggie for me - it really said to me that there was some sort of house universe that we weren't told about. I was familiar with Tekumel and EPT so I just assumed Traveller's rules came form a similar source: someone's personal universe, like Greyhawk, Blackmoor, Tekumel, and Glorantha, and these were the rules used that someone decided to publish.

But I still had to make my own universe up since there wasn't an actual example to follow, unlike those other examples I mentioned.
 
Saberdog said:
That was the image I got when I first read the rules, along with the things mentioned already on this thread. The psioincs was a biggie for me - it really said to me that there was some sort of house universe that we weren't told about. I was familiar with Tekumel and EPT so I just assumed Traveller's rules came form a similar source: someone's personal universe, like Greyhawk, Blackmoor, Tekumel, and Glorantha, and these were the rules used that someone decided to publish.

But I still had to make my own universe up since there wasn't an actual example to follow, unlike those other examples I mentioned.
Interesting point, Saberdog.
I'm one of those who started with the '83 version - TTB. (I had the 81 LBB's, too, but I didn't actually USE those)
So for me, looking back, as a person with training as a historian, I'm looking at the growth of the OTU. And I'm finding that the first real explicit "Imperium" is in the GW (rather than GDW) written adventures.

By 1979, White Dwarf had done advanced gen for the Other service, broken down into a variety of organized criminal types, a system generation protocol, and had added blasters and plasma swords. They also, by that time, had a deal in place with GDW.

But, outside of the adventures, there is no mention of the Imperium except in the review of the Imperium board game.
 
Just ran the numbers on the Type A in the '77 version. If you can find two worlds with at least pop 4 by each other, you can make a profit on the standard Type A... even if you aren't full. Expected expenses run about KCr100, and median income runs about KCr 140.

You can break even with 2 high and 2 mids, plus 2 empties, and 40 tons of cargo filled, and 10 lows.
 
Okva said:
Does this analysis have any implications for the canonicity of the early works?

There are some implications that can be drawn: for example, the ANNIC NOVA, the Kinunir, jump torpedos in Leviathan, the Gazelle, and perhaps the XBoat all have indigestion-causing mismatches with rules, explicit or implied. The OTU ought to be internally consistent at least. And if not externally consistent, then it needs to be clear on what rules it adds or changes from the core rules.


like the tech level chart, there was no reason to assume that everything at hand in Bk5 was a nominal part of the setting. That is, even though Referee's could have huge ships, it was a toolkit choice [...]

JTAS #4 (with the Emperors of the Third Imperium) came out in early 1980. There was nothing setting specific in issue #1, in my view. But the News Service bulletins started in the second issue (second half of '79). And this, along with the S3: Spinward Marches, is where GDW first really plants the flag for their OTU. Before that, again, for the two years starting with the selling of the first set, there was nothing but setting-implied details (there is, no matter what, some sort of star-spanning government with military forces.) Which in my view is different than a concrete setting.

This looks right to me. It also points out an item regarding setting that's worth re-iterating:

The game rules themselves implied setting details, which could be followed or not by Independent Traveller Settings. On the other hand, the OTU used them all, and added more of its own. Thus the difficulty when people speak of rules versus setting, because there is a chance of inadvertently equivocating.

Code:
The Traveller Book (for example)
|-----------------------------------|
|   Rules                           |
|     |      [Implied or Optional   |
|     *------ Setting Elements]     |
|     |              |              |
|-----------------------------------|
      |              |
      |              |
   Homebrew        "OTU":
   Setting      Third Imperium
   Elements     Setting Elements
For example:

Code:
The Traveller Book (for example)
|-------------------------------|
|   Jump Takes a Week           |
|   Shotguns in Space           |
|     |                         |
|     |      [Worlds Ruled by   |
|     *------ Feudalism]        |
|     |              |          |
|-------------------------------|
      |              |
 [Worlds are all     |
  Independent of     |
  one another]       |
      |              |
   Homebrew     Third Imperium
 
Last edited:
Does this analysis have any implications for the canonicity of the early works?

One implication, uncomfortable to consider, is that the early works may supersede the core rules in some unknown and unknowable number of ways. Evidence of this is:

(1) a jump drive that needs no power plant (valid in 1977 only), yet the Xboat design was grandfathered in; is this rule truly dead, or still productive?.

(2) jump torpedoes imply an incompatible, Alternate Imperium where communication and travel both work differently (and interestingly).

(3) the Gazelle redefines how hardpoints are allocated: if your design permits a potential tonnage, then the hardpoints exist. Changes the balance of weapons.

(4) the Gazellle implemented both particle accelerators and barbettes in a largely still Book-2 universe, making them subtantially powerful (it seems).

(5) the ANNIC NOVA presented a fuelless jump drive. Discarding the need for fuel tankage changes the nature of space travel - in effect, it removes a limitation that distinguishes Traveller ships.

Code:
The Traveller Book (for example)
|-------------------------------------------------|
|                                                 |
|  Jump Drives Need Power Plants                  |
|  Power Plants Need Hydrogen Fuel                |
|  1 hardpoint per 100 tons                       |
|  Turrets, Lasers, Missiles, Sand                |
|     |                                           |
|     *----------------[100t Min. Starship Size]  |
|                            |                    |
|                            |                    |
|-------------------------------------------------|
                             |  
                         BOOK 2 OTU 
                             |  
                             |---[Jump Torps]---Leviathan ATU
            [No-fuel --------|
             Power Plant]    |---[Standalone Jump Drives]
                  |          |            |
              ANNIC NOVA     |          XBOAT ATU
                 ATU         |
                             |---[PA Barbettes]  
                                      |
                               HIGH GUARD OTU
                                      |
                                  [Extra Hardpoint]
                                      |
                                   Gazelle ATU
 
Last edited:
Neato.

One implication, uncomfortable to consider, is that the early works may supersede the core rules in some unknown and unknowable number of ways. Evidence of this is:

(1) a jump drive that needs no power plant (valid in 1977 only), yet the Xboat design was grandfathered in; is this rule truly dead, or still productive?.

(2) jump torpedoes imply an incompatible, Alternate Imperium where communication and travel both work differently (and interestingly).

(3) the Gazelle redefines how hardpoints are allocated: if your design permits a potential tonnage, then the hardpoints exist. Changes the balance of weapons.

(4) the Gazellle implemented both particle accelerators and barbettes in a largely still Book-2 universe, making them subtantially powerful (it seems).

(5) the ANNIC NOVA presented a fuelless jump drive. Discarding the need for fuel tankage changes the nature of space travel - in effect, it removes a limitation that distinguishes Traveller ships.

Code:
The Traveller Book (for example)
|-------------------------------------------------|
|                                                 |
|  Jump Drives Need Power Plants                  |
|  Power Plants Need Hydrogen Fuel                |
|  1 hardpoint per 100 tons                       |
|  Turrets, Lasers, Missiles, Sand                |
|     |                                           |
|     *----------------[100t Min. Starship Size]  |
|                            |                    |
|                            |                    |
|-------------------------------------------------|
                             |  
                         BOOK 2 OTU 
                             |  
                             |---[Jump Torps]---Leviathan ATU
            [No-fuel --------|
             Power Plant]    |---[Standalone Jump Drives]
                  |          |            |
              ANNIC NOVA     |          XBOAT ATU
                 ATU         |
                             |---[PA Barbettes]  
                                      |
                               HIGH GUARD OTU
                                      |
                                  [Extra Hardpoint]
                                      |
                                   Gazelle ATU
I get most of these but number 2 has got me flummoxed. What is the big deal with Jump Torps?

I think I need to pull that Adventure and check it out. Never seemed to click as being out of sorts or disturbing the setting, or rules but I may be forgetting their size or use or other detail.
 
Jump torpedoes being less than a Dton in size - but the later rules saying that the minimum size any jump-capable craft can be is 100Dt!

Jump torpedoes means that systems can communicate without need for any manned starships whatsoever, meaning that messages (and small valuable critical parts, small valuable item, [gems, etc]) can be sent cheaply and quickly.

No more waiting for a ship heading to where the message needs to go, no need for anyone to pay a free trader (i. e., the PCs) to take a message, or to transport that historic artifact that some noble wants shipped somewhere - no need to pay the PCs to make that run to deliver a vitally-needed drug, just throw the shipment in however many jump torpedoes are needed and launch them.
 
Jump torpedoes being less than a Dton in size - but the later rules saying that the minimum size any jump-capable craft can be is 100Dt!

Jump torpedoes means that systems can communicate without need for any manned starships whatsoever, meaning that messages (and small valuable critical parts, small valuable item, [gems, etc]) can be sent cheaply and quickly.

No more waiting for a ship heading to where the message needs to go, no need for anyone to pay a free trader (i. e., the PCs) to take a message, or to transport that historic artifact that some noble wants shipped somewhere - no need to pay the PCs to make that run to deliver a vitally-needed drug, just throw the shipment in however many jump torpedoes are needed and launch them.
And that is why they do not exist in MTU. They would change the feel o the game and it is the feel I like about the game. ;)
 
I get most of these but number 2 has got me flummoxed. What is the big deal with Jump Torps?

I think I need to pull that Adventure and check it out. Never seemed to click as being out of sorts or disturbing the setting, or rules but I may be forgetting their size or use or other detail.

If you can make them cost less than MCr70 per 1760 Jumps, then you are cheaper than an X-Boat's theoretical lifespan. They then supplant the X-boat network, and no longer do you need manned couriers.

Further, if you can make a 1Td Jump Torp, you should be able to make a 10Td Jump Fighter. And that leads to a Star Wars type feel, not an Asimov/Niven/Pournelle/Cherryh/Smith one.

It won't break the game badly, but it does break certain elements badly - X-Boat nets, fleet engagement reports (EG: send a couple when you see the enemy, then a couple more if you survived)
 
EG: send a couple when you see the enemy, then a couple more if you survived

Seems to me that this information is important enough to have a 1/2 dozen or so Scout specifically tasked for.

Jump out just prior to engagement (or not, just with status), hang back and jump out after an engagement.

Basically, Scout ships flitting about to and fro keeping central command up to date.

Jump torps just make this cheaper, but I think the reality is that this would happen anyway.
 
IN fleets have jump 6 couriers and scout/couriers to carry messages, how does a jump torpedo offer an advantage?

Also just how much data can you pack into the 10kg payload space?

I think the real reason for getting rid is the potential for arguing that if you can build a 50kg missile with a jump drive then a small craft or even suit of powered armour could be so equipped (a point Aramis made up thread).

I do not see the actual message carrying capability as setting disruptive, since you could just automate x-boats (and there are rumours of such).
 
IN fleets have jump 6 couriers and scout/couriers to carry messages, how does a jump torpedo offer an advantage?

Also just how much data can you pack into the 10kg payload space?

I think the real reason for getting rid is the potential for arguing that if you can build a 50kg missile with a jump drive then a small craft or even suit of powered armour could be so equipped (a point Aramis made up thread).

I do not see the actual message carrying capability as setting disruptive, since you could just automate x-boats (and there are rumours of such).

1. Jump torps are significantly cheaper than X-boats.

2. A 100dt scout can carry several jump torps at the same time, allowing messages to be sent to several systems at the same time from a single scout. Try that with X-boats.
 
Ultimately I think is a flavor question, because ultimately there are easy "PSB" reasons to answer any challenge.

"Why no sub-100dton starships"
PSB = Because to make a Jump Feld that allows human survival requires at least a 100dton hull to maintain integrity.

"Why aren't crucial biomedical supplies shipped this way"
PSB = Some variation of the above. Biologicals require 100dton hull to be "safe" in the case of non-biological meds... Heck, maybe under a 100dton hull every thing starts to warp a bit, or is so contaminated by "jumpation" (aka jump radiation) that's it is unusable. Perhaps items can get "jump sickness" also.

"Why does a data transmission work then?"
PSB = Because they figured out a way to put enough shielding (or the correct medium) around the data storage to prevent corruption, or jumpation doesn't affect electronic data storage for some reason. It's Jump Space, normal rules don't apply!

"How they be cheap enough to be used?"
PSB- Who says they are? We're not given a price as far as I can recall. They may be horrendously expensive - such that they are saved for situations exactly like what we saw in the module. Plus, perhaps warships carry one for a Honor Harrington style "Code Omega".

D.
 
Ultimately I think is a flavor question, because ultimately there are easy "PSB" reasons to answer any challenge.

"Why no sub-100dton starships"
PSB = Because to make a Jump Feld that allows human survival requires at least a 100dton hull to maintain integrity.

"Why aren't crucial biomedical supplies shipped this way"
PSB = Some variation of the above. Biologicals require 100dton hull to be "safe" in the case of non-biological meds... Heck, maybe under a 100dton hull every thing starts to warp a bit, or is so contaminated by "jumpation" (aka jump radiation) that's it is unusable. Perhaps items can get "jump sickness" also.

"Why does a data transmission work then?"
PSB = Because they figured out a way to put enough shielding (or the correct medium) around the data storage to prevent corruption, or jumpation doesn't affect electronic data storage for some reason. It's Jump Space, normal rules don't apply!

"How they be cheap enough to be used?"
PSB- Who says they are? We're not given a price as far as I can recall. They may be horrendously expensive - such that they are saved for situations exactly like what we saw in the module. Plus, perhaps warships carry one for a Honor Harrington style "Code Omega".

D.

The PDF version of Bk 2-77 doesn't give any rules at all for jump torps. Just mentions them in passing.

A4 Leviathan mentions them as standard equipment. Location D-6, showing 6 Td on plan, holds 16 missiles, 4 jump torps, 8 RPV drones, 4 drop capsules, and explosive stores.

We know drop caps take 1/2 Td each (Striker, bk 2)... which leaves 4 Td.
We can esitmate that missiles are about 200 to the Td. in safety packaging. So that's another 1Td. Which implies the Jump Torps are about 1/2 Td each.

That is about all we can say from the texts about J-Torps.
 
How much do jump torps cost? How many times can they be used? What range do they have?

Make them 5MCr each, limit them to jump 1 and say they are one use and suddenly the reusable x-boat makes a lot of sense for your communication network.
 
How much do jump torps cost? How many times can they be used? What range do they have?

Make them 5MCr each, limit them to jump 1 and say they are one use and suddenly the reusable x-boat makes a lot of sense for your communication network.

This way of thinking makes sense. Just like in real life, there are various technologies that are set aside because of costs or an alternative that is cheaper etc. Not all things invented go on to be common.
 
Ultimately I think is a flavor question, because ultimately there are easy "PSB" reasons to answer any challenge.

"Why no sub-100dton starships"
PSB = Because to make a Jump Feld that allows human survival requires at least a 100dton hull to maintain integrity.

"Why aren't crucial biomedical supplies shipped this way"
PSB = Some variation of the above. Biologicals require 100dton hull to be "safe" in the case of non-biological meds... Heck, maybe under a 100dton hull every thing starts to warp a bit, or is so contaminated by "jumpation" (aka jump radiation) that's it is unusable. Perhaps items can get "jump sickness" also.

"Why does a data transmission work then?"
PSB = Because they figured out a way to put enough shielding (or the correct medium) around the data storage to prevent corruption, or jumpation doesn't affect electronic data storage for some reason. It's Jump Space, normal rules don't apply!

"How they be cheap enough to be used?"
PSB- Who says they are? We're not given a price as far as I can recall. They may be horrendously expensive - such that they are saved for situations exactly like what we saw in the module. Plus, perhaps warships carry one for a Honor Harrington style "Code Omega".

D.

How much do jump torps cost? How many times can they be used? What range do they have?

Make them 5MCr each, limit them to jump 1 and say they are one use and suddenly the reusable x-boat makes a lot of sense for your communication network.

Personally, I think a combination of these two works wonders.

I love the idea of a 100 D ton minimum for the transport of anything even remotely biological to survive, and adding in the prohibitive expense for making a useful scaled down model for message torps works well in combination with that.

Everything on a Jump Torp would need scaling down, and miniaturized broadcast arrays that don't rely on atmospheric bouncing of the signal are notoriously short ranged, and even then there is the fact that the jump rules for the edition that they appear in have a misjump chance of 12+ on 2D, 10+ on 2D if you haven't performed annual maintenance on the drive in question, making them unreliable (1 in 36 are just LOST in the best of circumstances, significantly worse at others). Then there is the possibility of interception at the distant end, and the fact that they would be short ranged due to space limitations (J1, possibly J2 top range at high TL).

Overall, in the TU I am building (and incidentally, the indirect cause of this thread) they will be available, but in no way will they supplant the courier style mail system that helps define the setting.
 
Last edited:
I think the volume of the hull has less to do with biology, and more with minimizing misjumps, since anything below fourteen hundred cubic metres starts to increasingly destabilize whatever field effect the jump drive is trying to maintain during transition.
 
Back
Top