I guess it won't, but, as you say, if it works for him, enjoy it
Fleet sizes
- Thread starter McPerth
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I guess it won't, but, as you say, if it works for him, enjoy it
That's the art of running a good game, innit bruv? :toast:
I personally have attempted to create a 2320 AD universe in which the Chinese Arm is a bit longer (Witch a Dutch colony off course) and in which there is an ongoing low intensity campaign in the Kafer sphere.
I have lots of affordable startravel to facilitate the campaign. It hangs on the stutterwarp as is, but with a much more available Tantalum source.
The stutterwarp drive is essential to the setting so I prefer to leave it alone. But good things can happen when you radically change things. Just look what the Vir Inter Astrum guys did! (Or is this cursing in church? :devil
As you said to each his own, in my game campaign the US discovered Alien ruins on Mars and futher discovered other facilities in the solar system. Once discovered they figured out the different techs and got them to work. The year was 2330 when I started that campaign and it is 2333 now...besides the Kafer wars raging up and down both the Chineese and French arms, the USA has become the tech lead in many techs and that includes robotics and botts, along clones too. Add in Plasma weapons to the mix, with genic super clone Troopers, the US military has exploded in size and strength. The USA has become aggressive and extremely nationalistic. They have already kick the teeth in of Mexico and reclaimed all of the former US ststes, plus Texas rejoined the Union. The wars on Earth are about to begin and the USA with it huge standing Robotic, Battle Botts, and Super genetic Clone soldiers, stands to do alot of damage.
Returning to the original intent of the thread, the number of ships existent in 2300AD setting, I was just reviewing the original 2300AD (that I could obtain access to) when discussing about MgT ships and I find, in Director's Guide, page 74, that the number of anjou class (only) to be about 600 ships.
I know those are comercial ships, but it may well incidate that the number of total ships (military ones included) is larger than I thought at first...
I know those are comercial ships, but it may well incidate that the number of total ships (military ones included) is larger than I thought at first...
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Several years ago, I read an easy rule of thumb for fleet sizes in Traveller: 1000 people can support (not necessarily build) 1 displacement ton of warship. An empire on a war footing could double this, one that is peaceful could have it.
If this is increased to 1 dton per 10000 people in 2300, to reflect the high unemployment and greater rarity of ships, I think this gives a better base than the official numbers.
If this is increased to 1 dton per 10000 people in 2300, to reflect the high unemployment and greater rarity of ships, I think this gives a better base than the official numbers.
This would be a good starting point, for MgT 2300AD.
Some of the discussion was about classical 2300AD, and on it there was little (if any) in equivalence to the Traveller dton as to compare ships...
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At 1 ton per 10000 people, this works out to a mere 100 tons of warships per million people, which really isn't that impressive.
I should be reunited with my old 2300AD stuff in a couple of weeks and, since two of my books are Ships Of The French Arm and the Kaefer Sourcebook, a conversion will be highly useful
Just one bit of info I found while reviewing 2300AD:
Acording the description of the Anjou class ship, it is said that:
So, there are about 600 ships of the Anjou class only, making posible that the total ship count is quite higher tan what we were discussing here...
Acording the description of the Anjou class ship, it is said that:
So, there are about 600 ships of the Anjou class only, making posible that the total ship count is quite higher tan what we were discussing here...
epicenter00
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When you consider 600 ships of the Anjou class only, numbers like "50 Martel fighters" at Kimanjano make more sense.
Essentially I find there's a "broken canon" problem within the original 2300 materials. The numbers of ships simply do not add up.
I'm inclined towards the "larger number of ships" universe of 2300 myself; it lets smaller organizations and player parties have a starship (even if they don't own, it's more understandable they could at least be given one by some organization for their use) and it makes interplanetary trade more viable. It makes ships like the X-2296 (I think that's what it is called - the private venture space fighter) less of a "you did what with some stupid-rare Tantalum?" thing.
Of course, it means that a lot of navies have to be revised upwards in numbers, but I'm fine with that.
It gets worse. In the original Traveller 2300 boxed set, for the ISV-5:
In Ships of the French Arm:
Commercant-class
Marseillles class passeger liner
(while exact numbers aren't given, this paragraph is interesting)
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epicenter00
SOC-13
Even within the Invasion Sourcebook which is the root of a lot of the "rare ship universe" (as opposed to the "plentiful ship universe" in parts of the Ships of the French Arm and the original rules)* you have this odd part describing privateering against the Kafers during the war. There's a line that "every transport lost hurts the Kafer war effort a little."
...no, I'm sorry it's not "a little." If the Kafers have numbers of ships as described in the Invasion fleets, we'll assume that the fleets listed have three times the number of transports compared to the fleet itself (the actual proportion would probably be less - the Kafers are the archetypal aggressor military, so are likely to sacrifice logistics in favor of sharp things that hurt.) Assuming this, for example, Task Force Zulu has 30 warships (18 battleships and 12 cruisers). If we assume there's three times as many transports, that's 90 transports. Each transport lost is more than 1% of logistics train. Even 5 transports lost is going to slow down the Kafer advance noticeably.
* Which is like 2300's version of the "Small Ship Universe" vs. "Big Ship Universe" of Traveller I suppose.
...no, I'm sorry it's not "a little." If the Kafers have numbers of ships as described in the Invasion fleets, we'll assume that the fleets listed have three times the number of transports compared to the fleet itself (the actual proportion would probably be less - the Kafers are the archetypal aggressor military, so are likely to sacrifice logistics in favor of sharp things that hurt.) Assuming this, for example, Task Force Zulu has 30 warships (18 battleships and 12 cruisers). If we assume there's three times as many transports, that's 90 transports. Each transport lost is more than 1% of logistics train. Even 5 transports lost is going to slow down the Kafer advance noticeably.
* Which is like 2300's version of the "Small Ship Universe" vs. "Big Ship Universe" of Traveller I suppose.
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Personally I think that the number of ships it pretty high for the most part. After all 600+ Anjou class ships would be matched with other ships of similar classes and specifications. So it looks like warships might be more scarce than commercial vessels in the 2300 universe. I always thought that there was a larger number of ships in the 2300 universe.
I agree in that context commerce raiding would be really productive in slowing down the Kafers.
I wonder if the quantity of warships is an indicator of the quantity of merchant ones...
I mean, you do not plan your fleet according the merchant fleet. but according the perceived threats and the "territory" to cover.
Imagine a scenario of a united Earth in a situation as 2300AD is. Earth can well have a very large merchant fleet, but, as you're the only to have it, and so no threat is perceived (aside from the ocasional pirate), very little military one is needed, as the pirates can be held at bay with samll ships, and only a handful of them are needed. Even though, it would be likely some more (and heavier) ships would be built just in case, not sure about what is to be found in space...
In 2300AD most countries may have small military fletes, even though their merchant fletes may be larger, as the mai nthreats they see is among themselves, and if all keep them at low numbers, no one will spand money in building more. Nonetheless, if any country begins to build more warships, it may well start a wapons race on them...
The fact any destroyed enemy transport (or merchant) is always told to the fleet that tries to oppose it, and, while true, not always is immediatly felt by the enemy. Also German U-boote crews were told so, despite the large merchant fleet UK might have, and it was also true, despite the fact UK could lose some shipping before really feeling it.
I guess the true key is being able to destroy those transposts (or merchants) quicker tan the enemy may replace them, not about what percentage of its shipping each ship represents...
Fully agreed.
How do we feel about this Official-ish article on ships in 2300?
It was published in 2300AD Resource, and states that there are approx. 3,300 Interstellar Ships in 2300AD, compared to a total of 10,000 spacecraft of all types in human space.
The 10,000 figure includes everything from Cutters and Spaceplanes to the over 220 Astral-class Bulk Carriers in service on intersystem runs.
20% of that 3,300 figure is 660 military starships of all kinds.
It was published in 2300AD Resource, and states that there are approx. 3,300 Interstellar Ships in 2300AD, compared to a total of 10,000 spacecraft of all types in human space.
The 10,000 figure includes everything from Cutters and Spaceplanes to the over 220 Astral-class Bulk Carriers in service on intersystem runs.
20% of that 3,300 figure is 660 military starships of all kinds.
Firs and foremost, thak you very much for posting. It's very interesting, and gives numbers quite larger tan BMonnery numbers...
See that this last sentence may be argeable or missleading... Are fighters counted among those military ships or among the 2/3 that are small crafts or interplanetary vessels?
See my own Steer Wheel Warp Frame and Barges design (of course, unofficial). Is it counted as a single ship or as 9 (one frame and 8 shouttles)? Or even as more, as there can be several extra shouttles in some regular ports of call? And in the case of the auxiliary carrier, it has 36 fighters too, are they counted aside, or the whole combo counts as a single one?
Before we decide on the number of ships, we need to figure out the number of humans. Pulling from GDW and MgT, the total seems to be around 11-12 billion, with 90% of that on Earth and Tirane, and 90% of _that_ on Earth.
So, 10,000 spaceships for 12,000,000,000 people -- 1 ship per 12 million. For actual interstellar craft, it's 1 ship per 36 million.
This seems ... low.
So, 10,000 spaceships for 12,000,000,000 people -- 1 ship per 12 million. For actual interstellar craft, it's 1 ship per 36 million.
This seems ... low.
The Warpframe is clearly 1 Starship and 8 Spacecraft. All forms of multiple-use powered shuttles, rotons, landers, and the like are counted as 'Spacecraft' IMO. Deadfall gliders and dropshells are not, as a counterpoint.
Fighters are obviously the tricky ones, as are interstellar landers. I'm of a mind to say that generally military spacecraft with stutterwarps that are incapable of transit between worlds within the life support capacity of the craft are not starships, and therefore don't count against the 660. Interstellar landers like the LC-20 meanwhile are clearly Starships despite smaller size and cramped capacity.
That's up to interpretation, though, as many different classes of 'warship' don't count against the 660 like Cutters and Corvettes.
You did half of your own math on this one.
Consider that 9.72 Billion of those 12 Billion have no need of spacecraft whatsoever except to deliver resources. Of those people on Tirane, all 1.08 Billion of them, generally speaking export more than they take in on their untapped world. A good number of starships are simply on the Earth-Tirane run.
For all of the other colony worlds, their combined population is thus 1.2 Billion. If we consider that roughly 70% of civil interstellar ships (an arbitrary figure, but a sensible one IMO) are assigned to Earth-Tirane shipping, that's 792 ships servicing the outer colonies' 1.2 Billion in some sort of capacity. One ship per 1.5 Million people.
As an aside, right now there are 2 spacecraft and 6 people in orbit for 7 Billion people. I recognize 2300 is more advanced, but the rocket equation is still very much in effect here. Space is expensive. Uplifting troops is expensive. Resources are scarce and there needs to be a reason besides the great thirst for exploration to send human beings beyond the surly bonds of Earth.
For comparison, over 50,000 large merchants ply the waters of Earth. They can do so because fuel is plentiful, because the water is the perfect medium for movement of large objects in a single container, launching requires literally dropping the hull into water, and next to zero space must be dedicated to life support. Construction is done with large cranes by sections, dropped and welded into place. By comparison, launching a starship requires putting every single piece of its construction into orbit with rockets, which are not cheap, assembling it in the most inconvenient environment possible (Zero-Gravity) without any of the simplicity of gravity, and then filling it with hydrogen fuel which does not exist or even sustain well in a vacuum.
Microgravity in a vacuum is quite possibly the single worst environment to do almost anything in.
Sure, if the colonies never export resources to the core or import manufactured goods from the core. And if people never come to the world or leave it.
We also have zero offworld colonies, so there is no need for a fleet of starships.
It is generally hard to find a few hundred tons of fuel for your merchant ship in the middle of the Pacific, as well. Diesel doesn't exist until it has been sucked out of the Earth and processed.
You can always build ships on a low-gravity world with no atmosphere, like the Moon. Anyway, building starships in orbit is better than building them on the ground, especially for ships not designed to operate in an atmosphere.
Sory, but one ship per 1.5 million is still way too low. Should be closer to 1 ship per 15,000 people.
1 per 15,000 is just moronic - and I hate to say it that way, but what the hell? Not even Traveller, IMO, can you suggest that 1/15k is a rational starship number. maybe in the very heart of Core, perhaps, but certainly not the Imperium as a whole. You'd be looking at hundreds of thousands of starships flying in the skies of every high-pop world.
Let's bring it back to 2300AD. A Commercant-class Cargo Ship is 19.76 MLv and 200dTons. A single Ariadne Cargo Rocket is 0.75MLv, and carries 5.45dTons of Cargo.
200/5.45 is 37 Ariadne launches to loft the dTons of materials needed to build the Commercant, ignoring the need to build its orbital construction facilities, launch the crew and supplies for that crew, the cargo devils needed to facilitate movement of large materials into place, and the cost of paying all those specially-trained space constructors to do the job and housing them for the duration.
27.75MLv alone to just get the materials into orbit, followed by 19.76MLv to build the thing and furnish those components, if we're abstracting, which is in total 47.51MLv ignoring construction factors such as life support costs for a space station, crew transfer costs, and the like.
Now obviously there are cheaper options than the Ariadne, but the simple economics of carrying foodstuffs, mass materials, and everything else to orbit is considerable in 2300. 1/15k is a ridiculous number under those circumstances.
I mean, you can probably go digging, find the generalized wages of a colony, multiply those by their population, take 20% off the top, divide the operating budget by their national needs, and then decide what kind of spacecraft they can buy.
