Non OTU: Modifying the Anagathics rulles

[Gray Lensman]

Hello gentlebeings, I haven't really been around much for a long time, but ...

I am not sure I am posting this in the right area, it is homebrew (or will be). Non Rules dependent really, say the srd, or ct, mgt, t5 they are all about the same yes?

I am a big:huge:fan of David Weber's Honor Harrington books and I been thinking up a homebrew loosely based on it.

If you are familiar with them I would like to see your thoughts on modifying the anagathics rules to simulate a single treatment done at an early age (with different generations of treatment) as opposed to constantly having to search for and buy, blah, blah, blech....

Come on, show me what you got

 

[Spenser TR]

Ha! This is on my list of topics to tackle, but I don't even have an outline for it yet. Very interested.

 

[Lycanorukke]

The one I have always like for Homebrew anagathics is from Freelance Traveller.

Anagathics: Doping the Inevitable

In this anagathics have been around for over a thousand years (since Imp 53) but the early versions were dangerous to put it mildly. They got better and needed less doses as the tech improved but the price tag went up sharply.

As for one lifetime treatment, there is a sort of one in JTAS 19 about rejuvenation technology. Instead of anagathics you get a treatment at 60+ years or so which resets you back to a younger point (say 20s). You then live another 40+ years and then get another treatment resetting the clock again.

As for T-5, with wafer and cloning technology, its very simple. When you feel too old, copy yourself to a wafer and upload it to a new clone which is 18yrs biological. Rinse and repeat.

A single 'one off' treatment to live forever seems unlikely unless it is ongoing in some way - super nanotech or the like.

 

[kilemall]

I suppose it depends on what sort of world you want.

If it is common, then you are going to have a lot of utterly lethal 60 year olds around with maxed out skills, and perhaps a different attitude about marriage and children.

Need to figure out how the planet is not overrun with population.

We talked about this in another thread about long-lived Vilani, you could have another century or three of the output of the most brilliant people who ever lived- or maybe a very static society locked into the control of said geniuses.

You could have it be only for the rich or HiSOC, with all the resentments brewing that implies.

Could be the cheap version continuing version, or the really good onetime or the 60 year versions- but once you go one way you are locked into it.

I don't know that I would be so fast to discard the 'fountain of youth' dose dependency meme- should always be a game price for advantage.

 

[aramis]

Hello gentlebeings, I haven't really been around much for a long time, but ...

I am not sure I am posting this in the right area, it is homebrew (or will be). Non Rules dependent really, say the srd, or ct, mgt, t5 they are all about the same yes?

No, the Anagathics rules are edition specific, as they interface highly with the Aging rules, which do differ widely

CT aging is 3 rolls every 4 years from age 34. Nothing in the rules prevents increasing age... Each roll is an unmodified 2d6 for a TN+, and that is set by how old you are.

CT Anagathics just prevent you from making aging saves (TTB, p. 106). (They don't fix your age.) So, going off Anagathics can be quite a wake-up... because you're old and the saves are hard and drop you two points on a fail..

MT Aging is similar to CT, but Anagathics, after 4 years of continuous use, freeze your age until you are off them for more than a month, and if you hit 4 years since last saves, you must make 1 of the three at your current "effective age". When you go off, you immediately take aging saves, and must begin again from scratch. Note that Solomani and Vilani may get positive modifiers on the throws. (The MT S&A book gives Solomani saves as 1 point easier across the board; MT V&V gives Vilani +0 to +5 by line purity...) Lowest save TN is 7+, worst is 10+, so those Vilani mods make a HUGE difference; a Purestrain noted for longevity (+5) starts aging at 34, with (effectively) Str on 3+ Dex Auto, and End 3+...

TNE: Save process is different, and the aging saves are in a different sequence as well. 1d16 for Attribute or less, with a 16 autofailing. Agil at age 29, Str at 37, Con at 48, Int at 61... All of them every 4 years on and after the listed age. Anagathics all have side effects in this edition, too. Apparent age is NOT used for aging saves, experienced age is. (TNE, pp. 31-33)

T4: Different process again: 2d for each attribute starting at 35 and every 5 years after, TN is (Age/10) or higher to avoid losing 1 point, roll for each of Str, Dex, End, and Int starting at 35... (T4 p.22) Anagathics simply halt all aging; time on them, after the first month, does not count for aging at all. (T4, p. 70)

MGT 1E & SRD, Cepheus Engine: 2d6-Terms for 1+, starting at the end of term 4 (Age 34), and each term thereafter (4 years).

0	1 physical –1
–1	2 physicals –1 ea
–2	3 physicals –1 each
–3	2 physicals –1 each 3rd physical –2
–4	2 physicals –2 each 3rd physical –1
–5	3 physicals –2 each
–6 or more	3 Physicals -2 each 1 mental –1

(MGT CRB p. 36) And Anagathics prevent any aging at all while taken. (ibid., p 37)

So, the rules for one are not axiomatically portable to the others easily - as they all work differently.

 

[Straybow]

Well, you can create version-agnostic anagathic rules by superseding the version aging rules entirely.

 

[Gray Lensman]

A single 'one off' treatment to live forever seems unlikely unless it is ongoing in some way -
super nanotech or the like.

Not to live forever, just to add some years, and it is a one shot non-renewable (at least at current tech levels)
treatment.

Also, it has been available for a while but there have been different generations of the drug/treatment.

Say something like this:
Gen 1: been around for about 80 years, taken around puberty, adds ~ 100 years or so ...
Gen 2: been around for about 40 years, taken around puberty, adds ~ 200 years or so ...
Gen 3: just now coming out, taken around puberty, adss ~ 300 years or so ...

Kinda expensive, but not totally out of reach for mid tech (at least at star travel levels), middle class folks.

This is roughly what the books have (I haven't read them in a while).

I suppose it depends on what sort of world you want...snip...I don't know that I would be so fast
to discard the 'fountain of youth' dose dependency meme- should always be a game price for advantage.

Yes there are social issues that would have to be addressed.

@aramis: Thanks, its been awhile, I didn't realize there was that much difference between editions, guess I am
gonna have to drag some old books out

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

A single 'one off' treatment to live forever seems unlikely unless it is ongoing in some way - super nanotech or the like.

the description is not very precise in the honourverse books, but the basics is that the treatment "corrects" the cell copying defects that cause aging, so the body just keeps on running, and doesn't accrue the assorted errors that finally mount up and kill a person. Nanotech is a possibility, as the setting has is very high tech in a "behind the scenes" way (its mentioned off hand a few times, and its not treated as a big deal. they can, for instance, inject a woman with a nanite treatment that would scour her overies and remove all her eggs that carry a certain genetic defect, without affecting any non defective eggs, or anything else, and that this sort of thing is an out-patient treatment.


I think the 1st gen treatments stop the biological age in the 50s, while the second gen treatments stop it in the mid 30s. they are taken quite early (normally admistered at a pre-pubescent age, but can be taken into early 20s). its notable that it slows down all phases of the aging process (it stretches out puberty enough that some of 21 and 22 year old ensigns and 2nd Lts in the books still have a biological age of less than 15)

For the social effects, the books haven't fully explored those, partly because the setting they are in has not yet fully explored them, they simply havn't had the treatments long enough. the oldest character whose age is given that I can think off is aobut 180, but a few effects are noted. Among them, the general decline in birth rates seen today in western contries has continued, and accelerated. fewer people are having less kids, and those that are, tend to have them later in life (since they don't have to worry about a biological time limit, they tend to go have a career, then settle down and raise kids. their is a general slowdown of promotion times, as higher ranking people are no longer retiring to make room, which I think would promise a choking of the promotion ladder at some point in the future (the 180 year old I mentioned is one example of this, as he is the effective head of a navy, and looked set to hold is position as such for decades more, barring outside intervention).

 

[Timerover51]

I just do not bother with it.

 

[OldSalt]

One consequence if such a system would be that a treated individual would see the untreated members of his family, or the general populous, age.

For this effect consider vampire fiction, such as the rather seminal "Varney the Vampire" where an immortal vampire retains a connection with his mortal family, and Tolkien where Gandalf seems to be keeping track of a hobbit family across at least three generations.

I think such an extended lifespan might do strange things to the human psyche, evolved for our current lifespan. For an extreme version of this effect, watch "Zardos".

It is possible that these extended life humans might just stop learning, remembering new faces or maybe even becoming unable to cope with change. In these circumstances such individuals would be a drag on the development of society after initial gains, here and there.

 

[Spinward Scout]

I could see Elder Schools being created to live up to Gandhi's quote: “Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever.”

 

[Jason M Durkish]

I have Anagathics have side effects that edventuly drives the user insane
So the user then has to be killed
So it's use is banned in the Commonwealth and Dropa space

 

[atpollard]

I guess the question for me is will you be tinkering all of the rules accordingly?

Will a character muster out with 30 terms in the Navy and all the skills and muster rolls accumulated?

Will you be using it to just paint the backdrop for the character's adventures?

As a practical matter, in 37 years of playing Traveller, I have never had a character complete a 4 year 'term' in game play that didn't just skip over years of game time. Outside of Chargen, do anagathics really matter to a PC?

***********

Setting those questions aside and just attempting to answer the question in the OP ...

I like SOC as a measure of access and I like the Rule 68A. So I offer the following house rule:

Based on INITIAL Soc roll (not modified during Chargen)
SOC 2-5 = Generation I Anagathic Shot = +1 to aging rolls.
SOC 6-7= Generation II Anagathic Shot = Aging rolls are still required, however the character ages at 1/2 the normal rate ... 2 chargen terms equal 1 'aging' term.
SOC 8-9 = Generation III Anagathic Shot = Aging rolls are still required, however the character ages at 1/3 the normal rate ... 3 chargen terms equal 1 'aging' term.
SOC 10-12 = Generation IV Anagathic Shot = Aging rolls are still required, however the character ages at 1/4 the normal rate ... 4 chargen terms equal 1 'aging' term.

 

[BwapTED]

The one I have always like for Homebrew anagathics is from Freelance Traveller.

Anagathics: Doping the Inevitable

In this anagathics have been around for over a thousand years (since Imp 53) but the early versions were dangerous to put it mildly. They got better and needed less doses as the tech improved but the price tag went up sharply.

As for one lifetime treatment, there is a sort of one in JTAS 19 about rejuvenation technology. Instead of anagathics you get a treatment at 60+ years or so which resets you back to a younger point (say 20s). You then live another 40+ years and then get another treatment resetting the clock again.

As for T-5, with wafer and cloning technology, its very simple. When you feel too old, copy yourself to a wafer and upload it to a new clone which is 18yrs biological. Rinse and repeat.

A single 'one off' treatment to live forever seems unlikely unless it is ongoing in some way - super nanotech or the like.

Is wafer tech actually a capture of the psyche, with the living person's consciousness transferred first to the wafer-as-body- and then to the clone's body?

Or is the wafer just a device that holds a computer program modeled on the dead person's memories? It's not aware or alive, just information.

And do the cloned persons have minds of their own, destroyed or suppressed somehow when the wafer is used on them?

I don't have T5, so I don't know how any of this works.

 

[aramis]

Is wafer tech actually a capture of the psyche, with the living person's consciousness transferred first to the wafer-as-body- and then to the clone's body?

Or is the wafer just a device that holds a computer program modeled on the dead person's memories? It's not aware or alive, just information.

Per the novel, somewhere in-between. The chip does keep memories, but is inactive when not in a (borrowed) body. The chip largely subsumes control over the whole body.

Pull the chip, the original owner awakens, usually with no idea what his body has been up to.

And do the cloned persons have minds of their own, destroyed or suppressed somehow when the wafer is used on them?

I don't have T5, so I don't know how any of this works.

While I've read parts of T5, only the chip is new in T5, and then added to the OTU in Marc's Novel.

In canon, Seldrian Aledon is a clone... of her father, Duke Norris. (Swap the Y for a second X.) She is VERY much her own person. See TNE sources for her. True-Son/True-Daughter is the term for one's clone raised as one's child, allowing for gender-swapping of the child/clone.

Putting the chip in permanently was not forseen.

After the initial short stories Marc wrote about personality uploads, Marc changed to the chip formation being destructive to the brain of the one being encoded... at least at the TL 12-13 of the early part of the novel.

In the Early short stories, one of them marc sent out (what, 5 years+ now?) to selected readers, a rating was asked to upload his memory for a missile pilot.... non-destructively... and the readers, myself amongst several, came up witha variety of issues... I've seen bits of elements suggested by Rob, Don, myself, Greg, and Andrea ... and a few others I forgot... worked into not having those same issues in Agent.

Several novel spoilers follow...

Spoiler

Note that the Agent chip does retain memory when not in use, but there are issues.
The Agent is able to integrate outside memory caches, as well, and essentially is a recycle of the initial concept for Flash Forward... A single character who experiences large parts of the timeline a few years at a time separated by long sleeps.
We also know that the chips can be duplicated. And carry the individual's own memories, as well, both from before and after activation.
The Agent is apparently unable to access the memories of the host.

If you haven't read it, it's really quite an extraordinary bit of lit. Marc W. Miller, 2015 , Agent of the Imperium, Far Future Enterprises.

It's both less expensive than T5, and way more fun to read. (T5 is full of ideas... it's thick with ideas that can be used as T5, or backported to other editions... but I would hardly describe it as enjoyable reading. Neither is light reading.)

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Wafers start at TL-10. They are recordings of various donor personalities, memories, and skills. Agent of the Imperium uses them a great deal.

 

[BwapTED]

I'll have to check out the book.


My interpretation, quite possibly incorrect:


A non-destructive upload of a subject's psyche is made, translating his consciousness, memories, personality, etc. to the wafer.
The person's body is left a living shell, without a mind or any awareness. Presumably life support is required.


The psyche ''sleeps''' in the wafer, until downloaded into a new host. The psyche ''covers'' or ''submerges'' the psyche of the host.

When the wafer/chip is removed, the suppressed mind resurfaces. It doesn't remember what the wafer-mind did with its body.


Is that all correct?

An am I right in assuming multiple identical copies of a wafer-mind are not possible, that each one is unique?

More: Can a telepath read a wafer?

What happens if a telepath tries to reach a suppressed mind, the one underneath the wafer-downloaded psyche?

NOTE--If this tangent is derailing the thread, I could create a new thread for it.

 

[aramis]

I'll have to check out the book.


My interpretation, quite possibly incorrect:


A non-destructive upload of a subject's psyche is made, translating his consciousness, memories, personality, etc. to the wafer.
The person's body is left a living shell, without a mind or any awareness. Presumably life support is required.


The psyche ''sleeps''' in the wafer, until downloaded into a new host. The psyche ''covers'' or ''submerges'' the psyche of the host.

When the wafer/chip is removed, the suppressed mind resurfaces. It doesn't remember what the wafer-mind did with its body.


Is that all correct?

An am I right in assuming multiple identical copies of a wafer-mind are not possible, that each one is unique?

More: Can a telepath read a wafer?

What happens if a telepath tries to reach a suppressed mind, the one underneath the wafer-downloaded psyche?

NOTE--If this tangent is derailing the thread, I could create a new thread for it.

The canonical wafer is destructive; the brain is physically destroyed in the process pf being read.
The canonical wafer can be duplicated once created; the "psyche" neé soul doesn't seem to be an issue, as duplicates have the same personality and behavior.
The chip is the seat of the psyche of the personality on the chip; pull it, and the person who has the socket goes back to who he was, not even with memories of what the chip did.

Lesser chips can store skills and such, but the personality overlay is really profound.

Note that, canonically, at TL14, non-destructive non-chip personality overlays can be made. See the CT Adv. Expedition to Zhodane.

 

[mike wightman]

There is a whole new alien race out in the OTU galaxy that makes use of synthetic biological bodies and wafer based personalities...

the Essaray are coming...

 

[BwapTED]

The canonical wafer is destructive; the brain is physically destroyed in the process pf being read.
The canonical wafer can be duplicated once created; the "psyche" neé soul doesn't seem to be an issue, as duplicates have the same personality and behavior.
The chip is the seat of the psyche of the personality on the chip; pull it, and the person who has the socket goes back to who he was, not even with memories of what the chip did.

Lesser chips can store skills and such, but the personality overlay is really profound.

Note that, canonically, at TL14, non-destructive non-chip personality overlays can be made. See the CT Adv. Expedition to Zhodane.

Oh, so the canonical wafer upload isn't a means of attaining personal immortality. It kills the subject, physically destroying his brain.
Ouch!

Thanks for clearing that up.

I think anagathics would remain popular, then, as these drugs actually extend the life of the person taking them.


All this stuff about ''chips'' makes me think of Cymbelline, the chips, and Virus...