Snub Pistol Errata

[atpollard]

Snub Pistol: The snub pistol is a low velocity revolver designed for use on shipboard and in a ​

zero-G environment. It fires 10 mm, 7 gram bullets at velocities of 100 to 150 meters per second. ​

No magazine is used, six individual cartridges being inserted into the revolver separately. ​

Reloading takes one combat round, two combat rounds if the firer is evading. Standard loads ​

Include a tranquilizer round, gas round, high explosive round. and a high explosive shaped ​

charge round to defeat personal armor. The snub pistol is a standard shipboard security weapon ​

generally loaded with five tranquilizers and one gas round. ​

More expensive pure combat versions of the snub pistol are available, generally in the auto-​

matic pistol configuration with extended magazines holding up to twenty rounds. ​

Length: 100 mm. Weight, unloaded: 250 grams (weight of six cartridges, regardless of type, ​

is 30 grams). Base price for revolver: CR 150 (six cartridges, regardless of type, cost CR 10). ​

Combat version costs CR 150. Loaded 20 round magazines weigh 125 grams and cost CR 40. ​

Tech level 8.​

The description from Book 4: Mercenary, pg 37 is reproduced above.

Note that the BULLET for 1 round [excluding any powder charge] is clearly listed as 7 grams.
Note that the weight of 6 rounds [bullet and charge] is 30 grams.

It does not take Calculus to see that 6 rounds x 7 grams per bullet = 42 grams and 30 grams / 6 rounds = 5 grams per round of ammunition ... so a 5 gram round of ammo fires a 7 gram bullet ... and 42 grams of bullets only weigh 30 grams total when you add propellant and load them in a revolver.

I cannot be the first person to find this since 1978 (the publication of Book 4), but I didn't see it in the CT Errata (2012 edition).
FYI: MegaTraveller Imperial Encyclopedia also lists 7 grams and 30 grams. TNE Reformation Coalition Equipment Guide lists 11 grams per round of ammo.

So first the easy question ... has this already been resolved? What is the correct data?
Then the second question ... does the CT Errata need to be updated (or do I just need a newer copy)?

 

[infojunky]

Hum... Funny thing that...

I always figured the "bullet" weight was the entire round weight... But I never cross checked.... Silly me.

My copy of the errata doesn't mention it either... It's not in the Wiki errata either...

 

[punkrabbitt]

I cannot be the first person to find this since 1978 (the publication of Book 4), but I didn't see it in the CT Errata (2012 edition).
FYI: MegaTraveller Imperial Encyclopedia also lists 7 grams and 30 grams. TNE Reformation Coalition Equipment Guide lists 11 grams per round of ammo.

I'm going with "Why, yes, yes you can be."

You, sir, are a trailblazer and an example to us all. Which sounds really sarcastic but is meant in good faith.

 

[Condottiere]

The mass of the slug has to be enough to have an effect on the target, and the volume of the gun powder to get it there, yet have no felt recoil.

 

[mike wightman]

One of the reasons TNE got Traveller right

 

[atpollard]

The mass of the slug has to be enough to have an effect on the target, and the volume of the gun powder to get it there, yet have no felt recoil.

So I set aside the Cartridge/Bullet data to plug the known values (7 gram bullet at 100 meters per second) into a ballistic calculator.

7 grams = 108 grain bullet
100 meters per second = 328 feet per second; Energy = 26 ft-lbs = 35 joules
150 meters per second = 492 feet per second; Energy = 58 ft-lbs = 79 joules

For comparison, a .22 LR is 135 ft-lbs (182 Joules).

From TNE [FF&S] ...
35 Joules is 0.39 D6 [about 0D6+1] for Ball ammo.
A 10mm TL 8 HE Round will add 1331 joules explosive damage for a total damage of 1366 Joules = 2.46 D6 = about 2D6+2.

The bullet weight appears WAY TOO low (and probably too small). a .45 caliber would be 11.5 mm (approximate).

A typical bullet for a Colt 45 is 16 gram (250 grain) which at 100 meters per second would yield 81 joules (0.6 D6 = 0D6+2) but the TNE HE damage is +1953 joules for a total damage of 2034 Joules = 3.01 D6 = 3D6. At least we are in the ballpark of a real weapon! TL 9 HE ammo would help and 12mm would help even more.

7 grams and 10mm and 100-150 m/s really doesn't seem to work as a combination.

 

[Condottiere]

1. I would have gone with a twenty two long rifle, possibly teflon coated to slip through spacesuit fabric.

2. However, I think the intent was to recreate a phaser, which is why you would need a larger calibre to act as a delivery vehicle for more exotic payloads.

3. At that slow speed, ballistics would play a greater role, so that the bullet doesn't wander off.

4. I would think that if you increase the spin, you'd need more gun powder.

 

[McPerth]

7 grams = 108 grain bullet
100 meters per second = 328 feet per second; Energy = 26 ft-lbs = 35 joules
150 meters per second = 492 feet per second; Energy = 58 ft-lbs = 79 joules

For comparison, a .22 LR is 135 ft-lbs (182 Joules).

IIRC there's no kinetic energy bullets for the snub pistol, just tranq, gas, HE and HEAP.

Remember it's a low muzzle speed weapon (to be useful in zero G). I always assumed this was the cause for not having truly kinetic energy rounds (as you say, they would not be too effective).

 

[Spinward Flow]

IIRC there's no kinetic energy bullets for the snub pistol, just tranq, gas, HE and HEAP.

Remember it's a low muzzle speed weapon (to be useful in zero G). I always assumed this was the cause for not having truly kinetic energy rounds (as you say, they would not be too effective).

Basically the snub pistol is a "payload weapon" where the kinetic energy/momentum of the projectile is functionally beside the point. The projectile is really little more than a "delivery mechanism" for whatever payload the projectile is to be loaded with (tranq, gas, HE, HEAP, as you've cited).

Perhaps another way to think about the snub pistol would be to imagine it as being less of a SLUG throwing kinetic GUN and more of a "micro grenade launcher" where the projectiles are really just miniaturized grenades that are small enough to fit into a pistol frame, rather that needing something like a 30-40mm tube grenade launcher (or at larger scale a mortar system) for mass AoE delivery. The advantage of going to the "microgrenade" concept is that you reduce the risk of collateral damage/overpenetration while simultaneously increasing the value of accuracy in marksmanship (so you don't waste ammo). Point being that a well placed payload from a "microgrenade" snub pistol could be more impactful to the outcome of a combat than you might be able to achieve with a kinetic slug pistol, because the different payloads of ammo can open up opportunities for engagement that "drilling holes in people and the scenery" might not, so there's a versatility available when using snub pistols (up to and including indirect fire/splash effects) relative to direct fire small arms.

 

[bookwyrm]

With all the time I've spent studying the Traveller Universe, I've discovered that the Traveller Universe and ours are different.

For example, if we brought that Traveller snub pistol into our universe, it wouldn't function here, and if a snub pistol from our universe was taken to the Traveller Universe, it wouldn't function there.

I believe that this is because of the small differences in physics, science, and nature between the two universes. This Theory allows me to enjoy Traveller a lot more than if I focused on all of the little discrepancies that could cause much frustration and distraction from actually having fun.

On the other hand, reading the discussions of those who want to understand those discrepancies can also help me to have a better understanding of them, and to therefore also have fun. I like to think I'm getting the best of both worlds...

 

[atpollard]

Given the 4D6 damage for the typical HE Round (CT Snub Pistol), I wonder if their thinking was more along the lines of a delivery system for a "shotgun shell" that detonates on impact rather than in the shotgun? That is the only other typical 4D6 weapon. [Just thinking out loud]

 

[atpollard]

IIRC there's no kinetic energy bullets for the snub pistol, just tranq, gas, HE and HEAP.

Not in Classic Traveller [as far as I can remember], but they are explicit in TNE (where the gun has a higher Energy) and it is mentioned in the Traveller WIKI: "A regular ball round is sometimes used, but its performance is only approximate to a TL 5 5mm autopistol round."

 

[whulorigan]

Not in Classic Traveller [as far as I can remember], but they are explicit in TNE (where the gun has a higher Energy) and it is mentioned in the Traveller WIKI: "A regular ball round is sometimes used, but its performance is only approximate to a TL 5 5mm autopistol round."

CT did not have ball-round. I wouldn't imagine that ball-round would be very useful. The general point of the snub pistol is that the round is very low-velocity in order to give low-recoil in zero-gee, and the poor performance of the low-velocity round is compensated for by the explosive ammo (for those intended to do damage as opposed to delivering tranq or gas). Ball-round is more of a curiosity than a serious ammo-type.

Now, in T5 and some other iterations of Traveller (and mentioned in AotI as a SnAcP-13), higher TL snub pistols (TL13+) are actually snub/accelerator combo-pistols and have higher "punch" to the round in addition to explosive potential (at least in the combat versions).

 

[kilemall]

I recognized the mini grenade launcher nature of the snub and so use 1-shot under barrel versions of it as an add-on to SMGs.

 

[atpollard]

When in doubt, go back to PHYSICS.

A 10mm lead ROUNDBALL (the smallest bullet you are going to find and a starting point) would be 5.75 grams (call it 6 grams).
A 10mm 7 gram lead bullet is plausible (matching the listed value in the description).

A HE bullet that was 50% lead and 50% C4 [I had to start somewhere with a guesstimate] would have a density of about 7 grams/cc to the 11 grams/cc of lead. That would transform the 10mm 7 gram lead bullet into a 4.5 gram lead/C4 bullet.

Given how MANY places in CT the Snub pistol appears, it would be a real pain to change EVERY place that says 10mm or 30 grams for 6 rounds [including carrying over to MegaTraveller]. It would be a far easier fix to change the 7 grams in the Description (which appears only once) to 5 gram bullet. The 10mm 4.5 gram lead/C4 HE projectile plus 0.5 gram of propellant/case would yield a 5 grams bullet ... six of which would then be 30 grams just like all those tables say.

I would still like to explore the ballistics a bit (that's just me), but I think that changing the 7 gram projectile to a 4.5 gram non-lead projectile in a 5 gram bullet is the simplest fix.

 

[atpollard]

CT did not have ball-round. I wouldn't imagine that ball-round would be very useful.

Inexpensive target practice comes to mind as a use. Have you ever seen those old "Parlour Pistols" that Gentlemen would enjoy recreational target shooting indoors with 0.18 inch black-powder percussion pistols? I could imagine a pistol that could be safely fired aboard a ship with minimal chance of injury or damage.

 

[Condottiere]

You could probably could do that with air gun, or just virtual goggles and a laser pointer.

 

[atpollard]

You could probably could do that with air gun, or just virtual goggles and a laser pointer.

I agree, but there is an innate value in practicing with a weapon that you will just change rounds and use your weapon of familiarity in a crisis.

 

[whartung]

What, no comments about the 20 round magazine for the revolver!?

 

[Condottiere]