T5 Errata Discussion Thread

[tjoneslo]

In the Sophont creation rules, Part 10 (page 554), when generating the Elements for Hearing sense.

It is entirely possible to generate hearing frequency and span (the span of frequencies the sophont can hear) and voice and range (the range of frequencies the sophont can vocalize) which don't overlap. Meaning a sophont can speak (or otherwise vocalize) in a frequency they can not hear.

The obvious solution is to generate both frequency and voice with the same flux roll, meaning the vocalizations are always centered on the same frequency as the hearing range. Which makes a sense the way vision is centered on the star central wavelength.

 

[aramis]

In the Sophont creation rules, Part 10 (page 554), when generating the Elements for Hearing sense.

It is entirely possible to generate hearing frequency and span (the span of frequencies the sophont can hear) and voice and range (the range of frequencies the sophont can vocalize) which don't overlap. Meaning a sophont can speak (or otherwise vocalize) in a frequency they can not hear.

The obvious solution is to generate both frequency and voice with the same flux roll, meaning the vocalizations are always centered on the same frequency as the hearing range. Which makes a sense the way vision is centered on the star central wavelength.

Most real species we can test have a much narrower vocalization range than hearing range. Hearing isn't always about in-species communication, nor always for echolocation. At least one species of fish generates a sound which it doesn't hear - used as a weapon.

 

[tjoneslo]

Most real species we can test have a much narrower vocalization range than hearing range. Hearing isn't always about in-species communication, nor always for echolocation. At least one species of fish generates a sound which it doesn't hear - used as a weapon.

All true, except this is for the Sophont Creation System, and table C assumes if you have the hearing sense it (meaning hearing and voice) is used for communication.

 

[HG_B]

All true, except this is for the Sophont Creation System, and table C assumes if you have the hearing sense it (meaning hearing and voice) is used for communication.

When I was in school they did hearing tests every few years. My hearing went, upper and lower, 10 -35,000 Hz . WAY below and above what humans can produce orally. So, no reason to keep them the same.

 

[tjoneslo]

When I was in school they did hearing tests every few years. My hearing went, upper and lower, 10 -35,000 Hz . WAY below and above what humans can produce orally. So, no reason to keep them the same.

There are four parts to "Hearing" sense. The central frequency of the range of hearing, plus the range of frequencies on either side. And the central frequency of the voice, plus the range of frequencies produced by the voice. So I'm suggesting the central frequency of the hearing and the voice be the same, but range for hearing and voice can be different.

 

[HG_B]

There are four parts to "Hearing" sense. The central frequency of the range of hearing, plus the range of frequencies on either side. And the central frequency of the voice, plus the range of frequencies produced by the voice. So I'm suggesting the central frequency of the hearing and the voice be the same, but range for hearing and voice can be different.

There is no parts to hearing hearing. Not structurally that is. The same physical portions of the ear pick up all the vibrations. Here is a good primer for you to start with.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearing#Hearing_mechanism

 

[aramis]

When I was in school they did hearing tests every few years. My hearing went, upper and lower, 10 -35,000 Hz . WAY below and above what humans can produce orally. So, no reason to keep them the same.

Yup. My most recent went 20Hz to 42kHz.. My vocal production range is roughly 70Hz to around 800Hz. (yes, 3.5 octaves, give or take a few notes by day.)

The error is in the assumption that having a vocalization and a hearing sense means that the primary communication route is vocal-audio. Sure, it's true for us... and generally true of most mammals at that... but it's a fundamental disconnect.

So, let's look at what hearing is used for:
Audio communication
Predator detection
Prey detection
Echolocation
hazard detection

Audio production is used for
Vocal communication
Target stunning (Weapon use)
Enabling ecolocation
warning potential predators that one is aware of them.

Only half of these vocal uses require overlap with the audio.

We can presume that communication use is likely if they overlap... and if they echolocate, they should have some spot within high range (40kHz to 800kHz) for production and hearing...

But also, the presumption of only one each vocal production apparatus and hearing apparatus is also problematic. Whales and dolphins have three methods of vocalizing... use of the blowhole, use of the melon, and the internal air movement that makes the deeper noises. ISTR that they also have two different modes of hearing; using the external earholes for low frequencies (≤20kHz) and the lower jaw for high frequencies, up to at least 150kHz.

 

[robject]

To me, it hinges on: how likely is the SCS to produce such a scenario?

Some preliminary testing looks like the probability is high (35%). My code might be wrong, though.

Assuming 35% is too high, what's a better probability? 3%? 10%?

 

[tjoneslo]

To me, it hinges on: how likely is the SCS to produce such a scenario?

Unless this is 0% there is going to need to be an acknowledgement this is a possible scenario and update the language medium table/rules accordingly. Specifically you're not going to have a verbal language if your creature can't hear what another one is speaking.

 

[HG_B]

Yup. My most recent went 20Hz to 42kHz.. My vocal production range is roughly 70Hz to around 800Hz. (yes, 3.5 octaves, give or take a few notes by day.)

The error is in the assumption that having a vocalization and a hearing sense means that the primary communication route is vocal-audio. Sure, it's true for us... and generally true of most mammals at that... but it's a fundamental disconnect.

So, let's look at what hearing is used for:
Audio communication
Predator detection
Prey detection
Echolocation
hazard detection

Audio production is used for
Vocal communication
Target stunning (Weapon use)
Enabling ecolocation
warning potential predators that one is aware of them.

Only half of these vocal uses require overlap with the audio.

We can presume that communication use is likely if they overlap... and if they echolocate, they should have some spot within high range (40kHz to 800kHz) for production and hearing...

But also, the presumption of only one each vocal production apparatus and hearing apparatus is also problematic. Whales and dolphins have three methods of vocalizing... use of the blowhole, use of the melon, and the internal air movement that makes the deeper noises. ISTR that they also have two different modes of hearing; using the external earholes for low frequencies (≤20kHz) and the lower jaw for high frequencies, up to at least 150kHz.

What a voice range! Same with your hearing.

Yes, lots o' uses for hearing besides intra-species comm. I can hear the approach of large objects a lot earlier than most people around me. (low freq vibes)

 

[Original_Carl]

Education, Training & Trade Schools

Is there anything preventing a character from going to college after career resolution aside from the title of the section "Pre-Career Education and Training"?

Should there be? Plenty of veterans go to college after serving time in the armed forced. Plenty of citizen-type adults return to college later in life, too.

I feel like this may have been addressed already, but I couldn't find anything specific.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

See page 71, T5 Core Rules.

Is there anything preventing a character from going to college after career resolution aside from the title of the section "Pre-Career Education and Training"?

Should there be? Plenty of veterans go to college after serving time in the armed forced. Plenty of citizen-type adults return to college later in life, too.

I feel like this may have been addressed already, but I couldn't find anything specific.

There is, see page 71, T5 Core Rules, first column, Later Education or Training where it states a character may suspend career resolution to return to school or training.

 

[sfchbryan]

Is there anything preventing a character from going to college after career resolution aside from the title of the section "Pre-Career Education and Training"?

Should there be? Plenty of veterans go to college after serving time in the armed forced. Plenty of citizen-type adults return to college later in life, too.

I feel like this may have been addressed already, but I couldn't find anything specific.

And a lot of us went to school while serving in the military. In MT, it is easy to house-rule that using the task system. I am sure anyone could work the same thing out using T5 mechanics.

Keep in mind, the manual can not cover every conceivable task - at some point the Gamemaster has to do some work.

 

[Draconian]

Regarding Neutrino Communication: we have already (several years ago) sent pulsed neutrino signals from one large laboratory facility to another thru the Earth and spelled the word "neutrino" to the receiver. I do not know if that helps or not on deciding the best choice for the TL of a neutrino-based CommPlus.
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Really?! That's promising. I'll finally get the cellphone reception I crave in the subway!

 

[Draconian]

I was looking at the habitable zone tables in various parts of the book (p45, p80, and p440) and noticed a couple of things. First, these tables don’t agree with each other. Second, that all stars have a designated HZ orbit ... while back in CT Book 6, some stars were so cold that even orbit 0 was classified as ‘outer zone’.

I also noticed that there are disagreements in the chosen Habitable Zone orbit (which was brought up in multiple sections of T5). The "Master Text Old" version on the disk seemed to have the consistent version, but something ended up garbled in the printed book. I worked out what the differences were, but Don was doing that at about the same time.

I see a lot of duplication of discussion of errata. I gave it my all last August 2013 to post several points in the "pure" errata forum (the other one). The last posted errata update, as you will recall, is July 26, 2013. Without judgment, I am hoping for something new to minimize any duplication or rules wrangling. "Say no more." --Eric Idle, Monty Python

 

[DonM]

I missed posting this week because I have the first winter cold and feel awful. I was hoping to skip one week and post Monday hoping to feel better, and hoping Marc makes progress on the errata.

Cross your fingers.

 

[jtgibson]

Found an interesting hole in the rules while playing around with the genetics system:

Solitaire genders have Dominant and Recessive genes per the Solitaire Gender column of the Mutation Table on p.112. This is meaningless, as there are no partners with which to share their genes. ;-) All of a solitaire's own genes are passed on to their offspring using either the Standard or High Risk columns, with a second generation of mutations then applied from the Solitaire Gender column per the last paragraph of Mutations on p.115.

Players should simply ignore any mention of Dominant/Recessive when referring to Solitaire genders and not bother recording it in the Genetic Profile. The Solitaire Gender column itself should have any Dominant/Recessive text excised, leaving only the mutation modifier.

Effectively, Solitaire Genders have either standard or Caste-Linked genes only.

(edit) On consideration, there is one part where eliminating Dominant/Recessive could get contentious -- if someone performs chimera-splicing from a 1NA and a different species, logically some of the dominant genes from the 1NA would take precedence over common or recessive genes of the other species. On the other hand, this could be solved with a straight throw on the Standard column of the Mutation Table to introduce dominant and recessive genes. Since there are no T5 rules for chimera-splicing between different-NA'ed species to begin with (and geneered chimeras within the same 1NA group allow full selection of the characteristic), the common use scenario (no dominant/recessive) seems to make more sense.

---

While also playing around with genetics, I noted that the p.115 section Mutations refers to the "Mutations Table". However, the table on p.112 is labelled "Mutation Table". This might seem like an incredibly minor thing, but since I tend to work with e-books and I tried searching for "Mutations Table" anywhere in the text, the search came up empty -- with the paper copy it would have been easier to notice the table while flipping around, but with the e-copy it was impossible to find due to the difference in label and the fact that electronic copies are normally read with continuous scrolling rather than page turning.

Not really something that needs a full erratum dedicated to it, but it should be borne in mind for the master text for any further printings -- a simple fix to the text to refer to "Mutation Table" instead.

 

[dalthor]

OK, plodding thru system generation and starports, fiddling around with some code while checking my UWP descriptor.

Currently, T5 system generation uses a table to generate starport type, with no adjustments listed. See the BBB, page 432, table 1.

MegaTraveller adjusted the starport table based on the maturity of the sector - Backwater, Standard, Mature, or Cluster. That maturity, if I recall correctly, was based on how far out in the boonies (stix, country, outback) you were. Quality of the starports increased as you got closer to civilization, so to speak.

Is that adjustment an exercise left to the reader in T5, or should this be an errata item?

 

[dalthor]

Reference Pages 493 - 496 - the remark/trade code table and descriptions. (Remarks table also on page 434, same thing applies.)

1) Garden worlds are SIZ 678, ATM 568, and HYD 567. The world is hospitable to most sophonts. Its size, atmosphere, and hydrographic make it an extremely attractive world. A Garden World has a safe environment which does not require protective equipment for humans and sophonts which share the human environment.

I propose to add HZ under the formula column.

2) Hot zones and tropical zones both fall in HZ-1, and on occasion BOTH will generate for the mainworld.

In that instance, I propose ignoring Hot, and keeping the Tropic remark. Add note 3 to that effect, or add "Remove Ho" to the Formula column.

Example Note 3. If MW has both Ho and Tr remarks, remove Ho.

3) Cold and Tundra zones both fall in HZ+1, and on occasion BOTH will generate for the mainworld.

In that instance, I propose ignoring Cold, and keeping the Tundra remark. Add note 4 to that effect, or add "Remove Co" to the Formula column.

Example Note 4. If MW has both Co and Tu remarks, remove Co.


Comments appreciated before I send as possible errata.

 

[Spartan159]

Page 81: Is it just me or does it make more sense for an Ni world which also happens to be As to have as a home world skill Ships Boat instead of Driver? Just saying. This worthy of suggesting as errata?